Anti-FGM campaigner Hibo Wardere comes under attack

I've typed a few replies to this then deleted them because I will get banned.

But policing the language used by a women campaigning against FGM is fucking abhorrent.

reprehensibleme

Cross post.

Quite the opposite - she'll get a bunch more allies.

Yes. A bunch of allies whose support would be purely conditional. If she centred transmen once, would she be permitted to go back to her previous way of speaking and writing? Would they say, "hey, Hibo isn't transphobic, look at this screencap?"

No. Few can ever place themselves truly beyond criticism. Katy Montgomerie, a young British transwoman and trans activist who is very active on twitter, got denounced as a terf the time she said people couldn't change their genital preference. She felt forced to apologise. Katy is actually definitely trans.

In order to keep the new allies, she would have to phrase each and every tweet and tiktok video thereafter with them in mind. Otherwise, pileons, or they would threaten to withhold the donations. Which would be dreadful if this happened at a time when she'd come to rely on them.

So gradually, Hibo would feel pressured to centre her Western donors in her tweets and talks, rather than the people performing FGM and the women and girls who are subjected to it, regardless of their gender identity.

Inevitably, her tweets would lose their force and power as she got tangled up in making disclaimers. Hence they'd become inaccessible to the target group, who speak English as an additional language.

I'm suggesting that the number of trans men who suffer FGM in Somalia is about the same proportion in the population in the UK, not that trans men in the UK are likely to have FGM. In the absence of other data, it's a reasonable assumption.

And how many is that?

I do not think it is a reasonable assumption that the % of transmen in the UK population can be at all confidently extrapolated to represent the % of transpeople are victims of FGM in the UK. (ie. that if there was x% of transmen in the UK than x% of victims of FGM would be transmen). Is this what you were saying?

There are significant variables that would render that extrapolation false.

And I would not support that the demographics of the population in Somalia would be a good estimate of the demographics of the UK, or vice versa. Do you have statistics of the trans population in both countries and the sex/age split?

Again, do you think that Hibo has the expertise to know how many that might be in both countries? Do you think that Hibo would adjust her message if it was at all relevant?

I read a theory somewhere that transwomen wouldn't want to be included as 'people with prostates' because it's a reminder of their biology.

Whenever I've tweeted about FGM, the first thing that nearly always happens is 'what about the men?'. One time I even went as far as finding an American bloke a link to a US organisation campaigning against male circumcision. Five minutes on Google. If he'd actually been remotely bothered he'd already have known they existed.

I don't think mentioning trans men, just once, in a tweet, will hamper her ability to fight. Quite the opposite - she'll get a bunch more allies.

Can you not see the significance in what you have just said?

You haven't been able to tell us one trans activist who has supported Hibo while she has been abused. Yet, you are now claiming that if she just bent a little in her language use, she would have a flood of 'allies'.

Allies who require her to adapt HER message to suit them! Not suit the women and girls who she is supporting.

This is rather hypocritical isn't it?

Oh. And even just gently stating 'if she did it just once, she would get a bunch of allies', doesn't remove the fact that this would, in fact, be a 'demand'. Because that 'bunch of allies' would not give their support without her doing this. Rather empty support one would say.

You either support Hibo or you don't. Making your support conditional to her making a minor language change is not support in any true sense.

DadJoke, you're starting to get into angels on pinheads territory.

In the UK the population of gay people (statistically) is higher than in countries where being gay is illegal. It doesn't mean there are fewer gay people, merely that there numbers are not being recorded accurately.

When she talks about women, she's explicitly referring to biology, as do most posters here - it's trans exclusionary, the very definition of transphobic.

Because there is no alternative definition of 'woman'. Many posters have tried to come up with one. Politicians have tried. All have failed and now they avoid the question entirely.

You are wrong. They center men, but acknowledge that trans women also suffer from prostate cancer.

Pretty exclusionary language there. Not all men have prostates, they should be referring to "people with prostates".

That's the level of language policing is happening with the word women.

Helleofabore

Sure, I'd like to see a single tweet acknowledging that she includes intersex people and trans men, but that's not a demand.

What % of FGM victims are intersex and transmen out of interest?

DadJoke:
'About the same proportion as in the general population. Unsuprisingly, there is no good data from Somalia.'

Really - you would suggest that the same % transmen and intersex people in the UK (or anywhere else for that matter)have suffered FGM as women? Do you honestly believe that? Don't you think Hibo Wardere would be well aware and on the case if this was actually the fact.

Trans issues have to be front and centre of everything now, don't they? For something which impacts a vanishingly small minority of people it amazes me that other people's lives are being turned upside down to accommodate the feelings of this tiny minority. Sick of it. I am so incredibly angry today, what with Scottish politics being in turmoil, Twitter being such a cess pit and women being told to be kind, or basically shut the fuck up when they raise pefectly valid concerns.

I don't have an issue with guidance to midwives which suggests that when dealing with trans men, use the term chest feeding. I think when talking about medical issues related to sex, mentioning the main category (men or women) and then flagging up trans men or trans women is a perfectly decent approach. I think it's unwise to remove gender designations altogether when almost all the people affected are of a particular gender.

I do agree that trans men are more centered than trans women for these medical issues.

About the same proportion as in the general population. Unsuprisingly, there is no good data from Somalia.

Excellent. You obviously have statistics though for the UK. Please share. We will wait.

Or maybe, there are significant influences within that demographic that would show your 'about the same proportion' to be a false claim, when considering variables such as age and more specifically, ethnic background and religion. I am very happy to be proven wrong though.

Back home girls are likely to be taken to the hospital to be opened up which is called Deinfibulation. Mostly will be ripped apart by their husband. Then that morning families from both sides come to see if the bed is soaked in blood. Nighmare

There are people who read stuff like this and then have the absolute gall to ask "but what about meeeeeeeeeeeee"

FUCK OFF

@DadJoke

The fact you are so keen that trans men be included in this discourse just proves, doesn’t it, that it is female people that suffer from this practice - and it is sex based oppression and fuck all to do with gender.

That would be a start, so we could get in with discussing sex based oppression instead of people trying to claim everything is due to gender.

So there are some people out there who will only ally with a fight against girls having their clitorises cut out if they get their very own name check?
Good to know.

Well I think she's bloody fantastic and I appreciate the links to ways to support her. Still have no idea what her work has to do with transgender issues.

I donate to charities that deal with FGM, but I have not donated to her.

If she does, I'll donate £500 to her charity, not that I can see any way that will happen. I certainly won't bother her.

You are wrong. They center men, but acknowledge that trans women also suffer from prostate cancer.

Thanks for also posting this gem. So, a prostate cancer posts mostly about 'men' but occasionally about 'transwomen' and you think that is the same as the degree of forced language change that women are currently facing?

I think that any readers of this board will be very aware of just how much pressure women's organisations are under to use dehumanising language vs men's organisations.

Only just got this far in the thread & reading the comments on this tweet.. I was half tempted to join twitter just to reply to Nora. Funny how Nora knows girls & women are "Cis" if they are victims of FGM... I mean talk about throwing TM & non-binary people under the bus there. (if they really think they are inclusive).

This may be the thing that has made me "peak". It's FEMALE genital mutilation of course nobody is going to talk about males.

If you want to campaign against circumcision then bloody do it no one is stopping you!

FGM is inherently exclusive because it's only relating to one sex

I think she is doing great work.
I think it's unwise for the tiny handful of trans men and intersex people who are upset by her language to tweet at her.
I'd love to see her mention trans men, just once, but that's a wish not a demand.

You have also said she is transphobic (no matter how 'mildly' you put it). You have said she dealt with someone 'harshly' when they attempted to correct her thinking.

You'd 'love' to see her mention transmen therefore, you are in fact, trying to also correct her thinking. I am not sure that stating you think she is doing good work negates the fact you found the way she dealt with the 'unwise' transman 'harsh' in my view. You undermine her efforts by trying to shape her message.

Hibo is a victim campaigning for women and children. She is directly in touch with these victims, she knows their stories. I would put more faith in Hibo to get the language of her message right than a person on the internet. Both here in the UK and in Somalia.

Why do you think, in the absence of any statistics for how many trans men or people with DSDs are involved in this brutalisation, that you have more expertise that Hibo?

I am sorry, I don't buy your 'same % of the population'. I think you might find it is a whole lot more targeted than that and it is completely disingenuous to say so.

And are you saying that FGM happens to male's with differences of sex development? Because people with differences of sex development are either male or female except in extremely rare cases. Are you using people's medical conditions to progress your opinions?

Maybe after she has acknowledged transmen and intersex people she can also include other demographics just so they don't feel excluded by a campaign that doesn't affect them either

It all seems to crap on the original concept of diversity from a great height.

Sure, I'd like to see a single tweet acknowledging that she includes intersex people and trans men, but that's not a demand.

And if she does this, how much are you going to increase your regular donation by?

Have you thought about whether doing this will hamper Hibo's efforts to communicate with people at risk of being subjected to FGM (i.e. not you) and the people who perform and support FGM (presumably also not you)?

I rather think Hibo has.

When she talks about women, she's explicitly referring to biology, as do most posters here - it's trans exclusionary, the very definition of transphobic.

On that basis I'm perfectly happy to be transphobic.