Feeling really conflicted

I realised something today thanks to this thread. And now I am really, really, really angry.

Since I was 15, I have been told that whenever I said anything about feminism, I had to be as polite as possible. That if I wanted women's rights to progress, it was imperative that I be incredibly civil. That it was imperative that any group fighting for improved treatment took care not to alienate anyone by being too abrasive.

I have tried my very best to do that, and never to risk being, perish the thought, strident. Even last week, a man turned up on the Omid thread and told posters that if they spoke too robustly, he would be forced to dismiss feminists.

Talk about the double standards.

TRAs can do what they like, can't they, without worrying about it reflecting on the wider movement? The wider world doesn't care.

It's just women who have to be perfect.

It really isn't a "both sides" thing. A handful of unwise tweets/posts on one side against a tsunami of violent and sexually violent ideation directed at women and girls by male people on the other. Plus the successful attempts to demonise and dismiss any possible concerns women have about the trans political agenda and rhetoric, no matter how mild.

I'm not going to entertain any gaslighting that there is any parity because it's a patently ridiculous claim.

If parents were potentially at risk of violence if they changed their kids in toilets for non-disabled people then it would be closer to the same thing.

Can you post some links to back up your claim that male trans people are at risk from using men's toilets jj?

Can you also show that they are more at risk than other vulnerable groups such as boys, gay men, ethnic minorities, disabled people etc?

I've been quite clear what I think of death and rape threats. I do not however considering someone anonymous kid posting a stupid meme of an anime character holding a gun to be a credible death threat - I dont like it, I have challenged it and wish it didn't happen but I don't really see that it's worse then accusing people of being groomers or child abusers simply for having a different opinion on how best to support trans kids. I think Posie's recent comments calling for armed men to start using womens toilets to protect them from the trans is as damaging and frightening to trans people as some of the worst shit I've seen from the trans side not least because it could have had real violent consequences given the political mood amongst many of those who follow her.

And I recognise and appreciate many gender critical people have spoken out about some of this stuff, but a lot more seem very keen to minimise it.

I’m more concerned about why outlets like the bbc, independent and the guardian aren’t covering it in an unbiased manner. Doesn’t that worry you?
It's about the business models. No one buys physical papers now so they have all diversified. The guardian is not behind a paywall, they have settled on a free at the point of use model (like in the Social Dilema) where they are not selling news to you, they are selling their users attention to other people, mining for data and either advertising or selling influence in some other way. In particular in the case of the guardian, they have picked a demographic and are going for sensational headlines that reinforce an existing view and aiming for rage clicks and conversion rate shares. There is a whole science behind it. You are the product they are selling.

The BBC has a guaranteed an income so is a bit complacent, tries to be unbiased but has young hip staff who are probably caught up in the pseudo-reality themselves.

There’s a lot of casual conflation going on in this thread. Most gc feminists, certainly the ones I choose to associate with, know all too well that genuine trans people, the people formerly known as and indeed still insisting on being referred to as transsexuals to differentiate and distance themselves from the current version of transactivism and its gender ideologically driven proponents, aren’t the voices being heard, and certainly do just want to quietly get on with life. The problem isn’t with these trans people, which is why the problem is occurring now and not 30 years ago. Things have changed. To try to frame this argument as though nothing has changed, or as if there isn’t a powerful lobby group who have been successful in a process of institutional capture in order to strengthen their position to lobby for actual change in law detrimental to women, is disingenuous.

If it were 'on both sides' then TRAs wouldn't have to endlessly recycle that one single Magdalen Berns tweet that is always doing the rounds!

I haven't looked at Aidan Comerford's twitter for a while now, but at one point he was posting it several times a week!

jj But even in that scenario, the question is whether it becomes encumbering upon disable people to find an alternative solution for parents purely because parents have alighted on the idea of sharing disabled people's facilities as a solution to their problem?

If those parents had instead initially suggested using the kitchens of those institutions, and were told no by the kitchen staff, does it become the kitchen staff's job to find parents alternative facilities?

Can the parents effectively assign that job to anyone they point at, saying, "we'll share that person's space"?

So had Monroe Bergdorf, for the same reasons. It's really shit on all sides and has been a major factor in the toxicity of this debate.

Munroe Bergdorf has been subjected to some absolutely horrendous racist and transphobic abuse, they have posted it on their Insta in the past. The abuse hasn't come from feminists though, it has come from men.

Women who are objecting to a biological male being given a place at a women's event to talk about women's issues, is not the same as men who don't even give and fuck about feminism or women's rights sending violent, racist abuse.

@JJ1968 - Can you please provide a source for your statement that "The intellectual dark web is a name right wing contrarians and edgelords who think they are really clever have chosen for themselves."

A glance at Wikipedia Intellectual Dark Web states: "Sources differ on the nature of the IDW, with some describing it as left,[citation needed] and others as ideologically diverse, but nonetheless united against primary adversaries hailing predominantly from progressives, including postmodernism, post-structuralism, Marxism, and political correctness. Psychology Today characterized it as "generally concerned about political tribalism and free speech",[2] or as a rejection of "mainstream assumptions about what is true".[3] Salon dubbed it a politically conservative movement united more over a rejection of American liberalism than over any mutually shared beliefs.[4][5] Alternatively, the National Review posited that, despite comprising "all political persuasions", the IDW was united in a particular conservative-leaning conceptualization of injustice and inequality specifically.[6]"

And "The intellectual dark web (IDW) is a loosely-defined informal group of commentators who oppose what they believe to be the dominance of identity politics, political correctness, and cancel culture in higher education and the news media. The term metaphorically compares opposition to mainstream opinion to what is illicitly found on the dark web. Those who have been linked to the movement have come from both the right and left of the political spectrum.

The term "intellectual dark web" was coined by the American venture capitalist Eric Weinstein, who later noted that he was not entirely serious in doing so. It was then popularized in a 2018 New York Times editorial by American opinion writer Bari Weiss.[1] Weiss and others applied the term to a broad range of figures from various parts of the political spectrum, including conservatives such as Ben Shapiro and Douglas Murray, liberals such as Maajid Nawaz and Sam Harris, and feminists like Ayaan Hirsi Ali. It has also been linked to online publications such as the libertarian-leaning Quillette."

.* If parents were potentially at risk of violence if they changed their kids in toilets for non-disabled people then it would be closer to the same thing.*

And what if these parents were a risk for disabled people? Are the disabled people just expected to shut up or stay at home..

It's really shit on all sides and has been a major factor in the toxicity of this debate.

tra's like to pretend 'it works both ways' - but they know its not feminists sending rape, death and choke on my dick threats, its not feminist trying to deselect mps for having different beliefs, its not feminists pinning rats at womens shelters, or pissing up professors doors, or intimidating academics so much they need bodyguards. its not feminists trying to destroy livelihoods of solicitors, and journalists or trying to get speakers they disagree with deplatformed...,

tra's cant help themseves, its just lie after lie after lie. the toxicity in the debate lies at their misogynistic feet.

Relevant current thread

Anti-FGM campaigner Hibo Wardere comes under attack www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4170253-Anti-FGM-campaigner-Hibo-Wardere-comes-under-attack

TheBuffster No problem at all! Goodness knows I've done the same.

jj any thoughts on my point?

There is no secret conspiracy. There does not need to be. Men can be quite openly contemptuous about women saying no. Even here.

It's not a bad thing to feel conflicted. It's good to examine, regularly, our own assumptions, check for blind spots, check and double check for evidence. Critical thinking isn't something that we are born with, it has to be learned, developed, and maintained.

Humans like to find and form tribes, it's human nature. Often, there's nothing wrong with that. However consistently 'othering' isn't healthy, and uncritical acceptance of anyone's ideas and info isn't healthy.

So - use that uncertainty to prompt yourself to do more research, keep asking questions, stay curious and sceptical.

Just remember that it's not always easiest to take the easy route. In the long term, courage and integrity brings more peace than acquiescence. If you don't align with someone; don't align with them. 'Be a light unto thyself', in the words of the Buddha.

there is no organised plot to invade women's spaces”

I think that this might be true. Trans rights activists have been able to encroach upon women's safe spaces simply because society doesn't really consider women's needs at any time. How else could organisations put policies into place without ever consulting women. If I want to build an extension onto my house , I have to submit plans and then my neighbours will be contacted to see if these plans might adversely affect them. Governments decide to allow male prisoners into the female prison estate because of lobbying from TRAs.; a decision made with absolutely no consultation with female prisoners nor the staff working in the female estate. Why did this happen? Simple , women don't matter. God forbid my extension throws a bit of shade on my neighbour' s garden but who cares about the female prisoner forced to share with male prisoners.

I feel conflicted too OP, although less so as time goes on.

I've been a leftie Guardian reader type for all of my adult life and my default position has always been to recognise the structural inequalities of society and therefore be on the side of the underdog, whether that is because of race, poverty, sexuality etc.

When I first started becoming aware of gender ideology and the trans movement I assumed it was like gay rights, of course trans people should have rights! That is still my position. However, the more I heard the more I kept hitting up against things that didn't make sense.

I was trying pretty hard to supress the wee voice in my head saying 'this is not right'. I was worried that maybe what happened was you got to a certain age and turned into a Tory . What, was I going to start spouting stuff about immigration and saying that being gay was unnatural?? Terrifying! So I read and researched more and questioned my views over and over but I kept coming back to the same conclusion. No, humans can't change sex and a man can't demand to be treated as a woman just because he thinks he is. And that was before I'd really got to grips with the misogyny and homophobia, and before I realised what was happening to kids.

So now I'm in a different place, and I realise that I was naive, and also lazy - picking news sources that I thought reflected my world view (or that are supposed to be impartial - BBC )and not bothering to look further. Like lots of people, I was busy, especially when my kids were little, I didn't have time in a day to read one newspaper never mind more than one. Now I have more time and no excuse! So I will read from a range of sources and decide what I want to take from it. I think the discomfort about who you might be agreeing with is good actually because it means you are more likely to think critically about what your position really is.

So had Monroe Bergdorf, for the same reasons. It's really shit on all sides and has been a major factor in the toxicity of this debate.

I thought Monroe left Twitter because people wanted a woman's event to concentrate on women's issues and complained that Monroe's presence shifted the emphasis of the event?
I wasn't aware that there had been death or rape threats like those sent to many women on Twitter. I hope the police were involved

*condemn obviously

I have still not seen any trans activist condemn the rape threats that JKR got without adding a 'but' at the end.

I concemn without hesitation anyone who has sent a rape or death threat to JKR or any other woman on social media for that matter. In fact I'd go further and point out these are very serious offences and I hope anyone who receives one contacts the police and the person doing it is prosecuted.