Feeling really conflicted

ROI deliberately used legislation on same sex marriage that was largely popular to slide self-id in under the radar. As I understand certain key aspects were added at the second reading with even less scrutiny.

Amost zero knowledge and understanding from the public on that particular part of the legislation passed due to almost zero coverage from the press who are to this day suppressing key news stories about issues that are affecting women in Ireland badly.

He believes that we are all buying into this black and white, good v evil narrative, hence the nazi accusations. He also links into the move towards individualism which is exactly where identity politics fits, putting everyone in boxes and competing to be the most oppressed. The trans ideology, not trans individuals necessarily, massively buys into identity politics, the wants of individuals (inc consumerism) and good v bad. Julia Grant was featured as an example of the move from established authority (the Dr who was an utter arsehole to her), toward individuals breaking free and doing what they want. Her story is heartbreaking (child sexual abuse and failed surgery).

I also feel conflicted as I support people in expressing themselves as they want, and transitioning if needed. I don’t object to drag, unlike many here, as long as they are respectful about women. But I’ve long believed men and women have virtually no difference in the brain, aside hormonal influences and socialisation. Men being stronger just used their physical advantage to subjugate women to serve men’s needs.

It’s a fascinating topic but terrifying when your eyes are opened to the darker elements. These elements are well hidden so most people don’t have a clue and anyone trying to inform others is shut down.

Sadly this is going to end up in a bad place for everyone. The genuine and safe trans women will lose out most of all.

There was one on Twitter - it might have been Owen Jones? - saying that GC parents now, are like the homophobic parents a few decades ago; and that years down the line, our kids will hate us for being so intolerant and messing them up. I know this isn't true, deep down, but it makes me pause and worry.

Well, in this futuristic utopia where Owen Jones is forever immortalised on film as 'a dedicated ally' in an It's A Sin style drama, we would also have males competing in female sports, male rapists in female spaces, children routinely being given off label drugs before puberty and then going into cross sex horomones/surgery/infertility/sexual dysfunction because they don't fit into societies expectation of their sex, and women being completely unable to access a single sex space or provision ever.

So... I think I'll take my chances to be honest.

Because he was male. The only way to be 'brought up female' is to have a female body and grow up in a culture that has contempt for that. Bullshit abusive experiments on boys prove nothing at all about the mechanics of gender indoctrination. They just show that quacks will do some really disgusting things to kids to prove outlandish theories.

I'm in another country with different politics and I too struggle with what you are going through, OP. I've always been on the forefront of political ideas and progressive policy. Yet, in a blink of an eye, most of my left learning groups took on this regressive, white, male-dominated ideology. I can't wrap my head around it except to say that tribalism is very real.

The tragic case of David Reimer does make me doubt the argument that gender is purely a social construct. David Reimer was brought up as female, but he somehow knew he was male.

I think @Sophoclesthefox has put it well: ‘Maybe you’re like I am and are struggling with feeling like you’re not being kind and supportive’ - I like to think that yes I am kind, and as a woman I’ve been socialised to be accommodating. So I suppose this causes internal conflict when I consider how some of the TRA lobbying is incompatible with women’s rights

I hoped that might resonate for you, titties. I find it helps with any lingering distress I feel about people telling me what a shit I am for my beliefs, that nobody who thinks as I do could be kind. I know they’re wrong, but I do still care.

I don’t want to throw out the baby of genuine compassion with the bath water of BE KIND. It’s been traduced horribly by people yelling at you to be kind (when they have no intention of returning the kindness), but feeling genuine compassion for a fellow human is still a great value to have. But people with a bit of life experience know that it’s not always a kindness to give in to unreasonable demands, and sometimes the most helpful word is “no”.

I wouldn’t compel anyone to frame it the same way, though, and I’m very much happy to also channel righteous anger too, because that gets shit done.

'In Ireland, Denmark and Norway, changes to the law on legal gender recognition were put through at the same time as other more popular reforms such as marriage equality legislation. This provided a veil of protection, particularly in Ireland, where marriage equality was strongly supported, but gender identity remained a more difficult issue to win public support for.'
I’ve added my bold there, because I think those are very telling phrases indeed. This is an issue that is 'difficult to win public support for' and best hidden behind the 'veil of protection' provided by a popular issue such as gay rights. Again, anyone who has even glanced at the UK transgender debate will recognise this description.

From James Kirkup's excellent Spectator article about the Dentons document. It wasn't used to change the law in Ireland but it involves exactly the same tactics.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists

Not really sure why anyone feels the need to dance to the tune of those posters who have repeatedly underlined they do not care about your rights. You know you're playing pigeon chess, right?

Yes, it's like a never ending game of it at the moment.

I just don't think some people see, or believe, what a lot of men are like around trans women. I have been sexually harassed countless times, sexually assaulted several times, once seriously and even back in the days I was just very gender nonconforming and looked very femme at times I was sexually harassed constantly in men's toilets.

You are talking to women here. I can probably guarantee that not one single poster on this thread has not been sexually harassed and assaulted, some more seriously than others. I was lucky that my lifetime of harassment didn't start until I was 11 with my first flasher experience. So don't come on these boards and ask us to make ourselves more vulnerable to male violence just because the male sex can't sort it out for themselves.

I just don't think some people see, or believe, what a lot of men are like around trans women. I have been sexually harassed countless times, sexually assaulted several times, once seriously

So you have some idea of what life is like for women. And yet you still don't understand why we say NO to men in our spaces.

Given Ireland's traditional contempt for women's rights, they probably needed no outside help to totally disregard the needs of all women.

Not really sure why anyone feels the need to dance to the tune of those posters who have repeatedly underlined they do not care about your rights. You know you're playing pigeon chess, right?

It's good to use language with consideration. That's why I focus on women and girls, and do not couch that focus in appeasing terms that make men happy. I just don't give a crap about that sort of irrelevance.

If this is the case then why aren't you campaigning for a unisex cubicle to be provided alongside male/female single sex facilities. This is the obvious answer.

If men are beastly to other men who present differently to them, then this is a male problem to sort out. It isn't womens problem.

We know that the Denton's strategy document was used very effectively in the Republic of Ireland to put Self-id in law with the minimum number of people being aware.

The Dentons report was published four years after self ID was introduced in Ireland.

jj1968

^I didn't equate gender critical activists with the far right, I just pointed out they are on the same side when it comes to trans people, that's why far right figures and conspiracy theorists have worked alongside GC activists^

I'm not sure how many times this needs to be said. WPUK started by left wing trade unionists. LGBAlliance started by left leaning lesbuans and gay men including a founder of Stonewall. All fought for repeal of S 28. Labour Womens Declaration - started by members of the Labour oarty. FairPlay for Women, started by an academic.

This is a tired, tired trope. It has no value because it is supported by no evidence but contradicted by the evidence if our oen eyrs.

Bunting, I've changed the ways I phrase things a lot over the last few years. I used to make sure I was transinclusive and actually type things like "pregnant individuals" when arguing for maternity rights. No more.

It looks much easier to get posts deleted now, or am I imagining this?

No. You're not.

know I'm going on about this, but I see it all the time, online and off, and grasping hold of how it works is genuinely huge. You can see it happening all over FWR, too. Liberating women has always started with consciousness-raising. If you stop accepting the conditioning you've had to soothe the sad noises, you begin to see that it's being used against you.

Absolutely.

My cousin was a trade union officer for decades and always maintained that the most misogynistic people were male trade unionists. You only have to think about their treatment of the Dagenham women to see how much they thought about women. In Glasgow it was also the Labour Party' s actions which meant that women carers didn't get equal pay until 2018.

There were certainly many in the left once who considered themselves perfectly decent progressive people who were opposed to lesbian and gay rights, often because it was something they couldn't empathise with, it made them a bit uncomfortable,

It occurs to me that you are comparing the sensibilities of people in the 80s, which many of us actually lived through and we grew up to find the situation that we face now. In the 80s, were you there? - people assimilated ideas, society moved forward and learnt lessons. Why are you suggesting that society has actually regressed by 40 years but with a new target group? It is such a false equivalence.

And who gives an actual fuck about Dentons anyway. This is exactly how conspiracy theorists work, take some report from some think tank that no-one ever probably even read and use it as proof of some grand plot behind the scenes.

We know that the Denton's strategy document was used very effectively in the Republic of Ireland to put Self-id in law with the minimum number of people being aware. Even today, many people in Ireland have no idea what happened but many women in ROI are feeling the effects of that legislation in real time to their major detriment.