Feeling really conflicted

How would you know someone in a coma was male? Do you get a psychic to ask their gender identity? Does a sparkly unicorn sniff them and stamp once for boy and twice for girl?

Crime statistics etc indicate that there is no difference in patterns of criminality between males who identify as women and other males.

There are no crime statistics which show this and you know it. It's a lie.

No. Look for yourself, there is plenty of research out there. If your response to trans people telling you we are at risk of sexual violence from men and we know this not just because of data gathered but our own experiences is to continually demand more and better evidence then you seem little different to me than the men who try to dismiss sexual violence using the same tactics.

I'm not going to sit here and give you intimate details of assaults that I, and those I have known have suffered and I'm not going to post the same links I have posted many times before and you have ignored. If you seek to diminish the sexual violence trans women face because it's politically convenient to do so that is your perogative, but it's really not a good look.

It is sometimes thought that it is unfair of women to treat some men as potential rapists, because NAMALT. One may point to any particular man as definitely not-a-rapist-because... and engage in any amount of distraction and guilt-tripping.

This matter was dealt with, for once and for all, in 2009.

deadwildroses.com/2011/09/21/schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-a-guide-for-the-men/

**This is certain is it? All those born male are of equal risk? Trans women assigned male at birth who only fancy women? Trans women without a penis? Gay males? 2 year old males? Males in a coma? Or is it true that some subsets of males are less of a risk and some are no risk at all? This is why it's a logical fallacy to assume something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole, even if it's the largest part. It is known as the fallacy of composition.
**
Females safe spaces came about because of male violence towards women. Crime statistics etc indicate that there is no difference in patterns of criminality between males who identify as women and other males. Ergo no males in female spaces in order to keep women safe.

is is certain is it? All those born male are of equal risk?

those who dont understand or respect womens boundaries, those who repeatedly inveigle into womens discussions, spaces and sports, those who send rape or death threats to women who resist them quite probably pose a bigger threat- but im happy to say that as a general rule, no men in our single sex spaces even men in comas

jj1968 Fri 19-Feb-21 22:50:28
OldCrone

Who are these vulnerable men who experience sexual violence from straight men at the same rate trans women do?

I don't know jj. What is the rate for transwomen? Can you link to some data?

ovc.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/xyckuh226/files/pubs/forge/sexual_numbers.html

jj this was published in 2014 and seems to be relying heavily on data gathered in 2009 in America. We have discussed this before - things are very different here than America 11 years ago. Please provide some more recent evidence.

The only thing that is certain is that all males, no matter their gender identity, present an equal risk to women

This is certain is it? All those born male are of equal risk? Trans women assigned male at birth who only fancy women? Trans women without a penis? Gay males? 2 year old males? Males in a coma? Or is it true that some subsets of males are less of a risk and some are no risk at all? This is why it's a logical fallacy to assume something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole, even if it's the largest part. It is known as the fallacy of composition.

i know, i know... its just the smears, the lies, the arrogance, the entitlement, the narcissism- but yeah once you've heard it once, you've heard it all.

*Who are these vulnerable men who experience sexual violence from straight men at the same rate trans women do?

I don't know jj. What is the rate for transwomen? Can you link to some data?

ovc.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/xyckuh226/files/pubs/forge/sexual_numbers.html"

So what are men doing about it?

Who are these vulnerable men who experience sexual violence from straight men at the same rate trans women do?

why are you focusing on sexual violence? The argument we are being given is that tw feel unsafe in the men's facilities because of potential violence from general men. The question is, are they at any greater risk of violence than any other vulnerable male group like teen boys or small gay men?

The evidence of any excessive rates of violence seems to be lacking significantly and I am not buying the assertion that tw have always used the ladies - they haven't in the way we see now and if some of the 5000 have, they were clocked and generally a woman was made to feel uncomfortable or scared in her facilities.

The new cohort of Alex Drummonds, Eddie Izzard's and Danielle Muscato's may barge their way into the ladies but they will be very noticed and it will be very unpleasant for the women who have to endure it.

The transwoman I worked with made very sure not to impinge on our privacy and we appreciated that. None of us ever bumped into our transwoman colleague in the women's toilets. Now we are being told that many transwomen don't even 'transition their appearance' so appear fully male, beard and all (Danielle Muscato, Alex D. etc).

And I don't play pigeon chess, however much the pigeon might be fucking desperate for me to.

Quite right Bunting. I keep saying I'm not going to and then I get sucked in. How to look after vulnerable men shouldn't be the main focus on a forum for feminists.

Who are these vulnerable men who experience sexual violence from straight men at the same rate trans women do?

Still not an excuse to advocate to put women at further risk of male violence by allowing males into female safe spaces.. The only thing that is certain is that all males, no matter their gender identity, present an equal risk to women

Who are these vulnerable men who experience sexual violence from straight men at the same rate trans women do?

I don't know jj. What is the rate for transwomen? Can you link to some data?

And I don't play pigeon chess, however much the pigeon might be fucking desperate for me to.

I once suggested that Stonewall et al could have instituted a transgender-friendly kitemark, which would be issued to buildings that provided additional, separate enclosed facilities. Buildings that had received this certification would be listed and mapped, in the same way I can use the NHS site to find out if there are any dentists near me taking on NHS patients (and whether they're accessible to wheelchair-users).

What a pity Stonewall didn't go down that route. What a waste of the last ten years, eh?

Women’s energy bring sucked into ever more pointless whataboutery ‘discussions’ as if there is some magic response that will unlock empathy and understanding when there isn’t and never will be.

It's tiring and depressing to see this play out every time. They don't care about women.

Should all these vulnerable men be let into the womens? What is the criteria in your opinion? Other than 'because I say I am a transwoman, trust me?'

Yes, do we let all males who might be more at risk into the ladies?

They just show that quacks will do some really disgusting things to kids to prove outlandish theories.

What Money did was vile but it actually disproved his theory. He believed that gender was entirely socially constructed and as such if Reimer was raised as a girl he would be happy that way - and he claimed that was the case - the experiment was hailed as a great success and directly contributed to the practice of unnecessary and unconsensual surgeries carried out on intersex kids. Even after Reimer began living as a boy Money refused to publish anything revealing his experiment had in fact failed.

The case is really not a good example of anything really, apart from how not to conduct 'gender experiments'.

We're not lying about this. We're not asking for it, or being over sensitive, or making a fuss out of nothing. It happens to us too.

I am not saying you are lying, JJ. I am saying transwomen are just as safe as other vulnerable men in the mens facilities. No more, no less. Should all these vulnerable men be let into the womens? What is the criteria in your opinion? Other than 'because I say I am a transwoman, trust me?'