Page 3 | How many women (or men) identify as cisgender?

hallouminatus · 2021-02-17T21:02:03+00:00

On another forum, I said "Most women don't identify as cisgender, and many feel that describing them as such is disrespectful". Someone has asked me for evidence of this. I think it's probably true, but I haven't seen any statistics or even estimates of numbers. I'm interested in any evidence or arguments which would either support or refute my statement.

merrymouse · 22/02/2021 14:50

Now, there's a whole other conversation that MN will dive into about gender roles etc. But that's not the main focus of the thread and I'm not particularly interested in engaging in a circular argument. I've just responded to the question.

It's an unavoidable part of the conversation. You might as well say "I believe the earth is flat" and then not explain why.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 22/02/2021 14:43

I absolutely do NOT identify as cisgender. I refuse to be defined as a subset of women.

SionnachRua · 22/02/2021 14:40

The question was whether or not women identify as cisgender. I said I do, because I do. If you don't, then you don't - that doesn't bother me or impact my identification as cis.

Now, there's a whole other conversation that MN will dive into about gender roles etc. But that's not the main focus of the thread and I'm not particularly interested in engaging in a circular argument. I've just responded to the question.

merrymouse · 22/02/2021 14:36

I'm as much cis as I am European.

But European isn't an identity. It's a simple statement of fact tethered to an objective truth. The most hard line Brexiter who hates everything South of Dover and East of Norfolk can't avoid the fact that England is geographically part of Europe.

Cis literally means 'identifies with norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman'. 100 years ago this would have meant that you wouldn't have been deemed worthy of receiving an education, and in many parts of the world it still does. It means you identify with a belief that women should dress and present in a particular way.

I accept that many women do believe this. I just don't understand why, or why they would think that this is in any way progressive. You aren't adding anything to the conversation if you can't explain why you would agree with such a regressive concept.

SionnachRua · 22/02/2021 14:16

@334bu

*Sure, I have no problem with it. It's a bit like being European, I think about that very rarely but if asked what continent I'm from, I'd definitely call myself European.*

But you are European. This country is a subset of the continent of Europe so we can say we are European , we are also British Europeans or even Little Whomping in the Marsh Somethingshire British Europeans.

This is totally different as you are being asked to call yourself a subset of a group because someone who doesn't belong to that group wants to appropriate the name. Woman is the word used to describe a member of the female sex , transwomen are not members of that group so the word cis meaning a non trans woman is a nonsense in this context. Transwomen are gender non- conforming members of the male sex not the female sex.

Calling myself cis isn't a problem for me. It may be a problem for you but doesn't trouble me in the slightest. I'm as much cis as I am European.

PurpleMustang · 22/02/2021 11:13

The people coming up with all of these terms also need to realise unless there is some big national campaign a lot of normal, everyday women are never going to hear this term and have no idea. Until a week ago I had never heard of it and if they changes forms to all of these terms and it was a choice on a form over female I would be having to ask someone which one 'I am' as I wouldn't of had a clue!

TheWordWomanIsTaken · 22/02/2021 11:03

@FishWithoutABike

I don’t mind the use of ‘cis’ when discussing trans or gender issues. It sometimes helps to have a word for clarification. I don’t ‘identify’ as anything though. I’m just a woman because I am an adult human female.

The words for clarification are transwoman or transman - no spaces as they are not a type of woman or man. No need at all to subset women or men with cis. Women and men, female and male work perfectly fine.

334bu · 22/02/2021 08:10

Sure, I have no problem with it. It's a bit like being European, I think about that very rarely but if asked what continent I'm from, I'd definitely call myself European.

But you are European. This country is a subset of the continent of Europe so we can say we are European , we are also British Europeans or even Little Whomping in the Marsh Somethingshire British Europeans.

This is totally different as you are being asked to call yourself a subset of a group because someone who doesn't belong to that group wants to appropriate the name. Woman is the word used to describe a member of the female sex , transwomen are not members of that group so the word cis meaning a non trans woman is a nonsense in this context. Transwomen are gender non- conforming members of the male sex not the female sex.

Bowednotbroken · 22/02/2021 08:01

I find 'cis' so infuriating! Definitely don't accept it as a descriptor, I'm a woman. More often than not it seems to me to be used as a virtue signaller, or a put-down.

katy1213 · 22/02/2021 02:07

No, they can fuck right off and take their pronouns with them.

SionnachRua · 22/02/2021 01:37

Sure, I have no problem with it. It's a bit like being European, I think about that very rarely but if asked what continent I'm from, I'd definitely call myself European.

SakuraLDN · 22/02/2021 01:23

I find it offensive to have a label forced on me that I've not chosen. I can't identify with a term that assumes such patriarchal stereotypes determine gender identity. I am a woman, born with a female body. I like space, data, work in technology and am logical, direct and stubborn - stereotypically male preferences and traits but I have a vagina and am growing a human in my uterus. Cis also just sounds shit.

LilyRed · 22/02/2021 00:17

No I'm bloody not Cis, never was and never will be. I find it offensive.

Bluesername · 21/02/2021 22:24

Short women are women does not imply tall women are men.

That's because short women are women and tall women are women. Woman is a noun meaning adult human female. Short and tall are adjectives which describe the women.

Trans is not an adjective to describe a type of woman or a subset of women. Transwoman is a separate noun which refers to a male human who would rather be female.

AdHominemNonSequitur · 21/02/2021 22:01

Also cis was only coined (in relation to trans) in the mid 1990's by one random German sexologist. It's made up! Ideological batshitery at it's very worst. See anyone can do it. Not only is this movement compelling speech, deciding what words we can't use and words we must use, it is using words to describe us that we have expressly rejected.

GoldenBlue · 21/02/2021 21:25

@XDownwiththissortofthingX

I appreciate the patience too, but it's really coming down to, 'its just too hard work and time consuming to check and care about everyone's views equally so quicker to just impose a political view for our convenience, oh well'.... questionable

Sorry, but it really isn't that at all, and that suggestion totally ignores the many reasons I gave to you as to why.

It's economy of scale for the most part. We do not set the trends because in the larger scheme of things our organisation is tiny. It caters to less than 0.5% of the UK population. There are much larger organisations who provide much the same service on a far larger scale, and those organisations do indeed carry out much of the legwork that goes into establishing accepted best practice, terms of reference etc. We are not directly subservient to those larger organisations as they are not our commissioners, but we do look to them for guidance, we do have some agreements with them that are more akin to a 'memorandum of understanding'.

If anything we do is simply a question of 'hard work and time', it gets done. Period. People who work in third sector will tell you that there is absolutely no paucity of either in charitable organisations. We are bound by the strictures of our contracts and the terms of our funding, so invariably, what restricts us is funding first and foremost, and remit secondly.

Considering that biological women are 70% (approx) of our entire user base, it would be pretty bloody stupid if we just wrote them off as 'not the group we have to be really scared about offending'. People do not qualify for our service based on sex, but it does have a significant impact on how we can best provide the service to them, it has ramifications for what we can do with them in terms of signposting, referral onwards etc, so to imply that we simply don't care about them because of the fact that one specific term might be used on an infrequent and very limited basis is nonsense, not borne out by the fact that women record an almost universally positive response to our service and voluntarily return over and over as repeat users.

The organisation itself is overwhelmingly staffed by women, guided by a board that is majority female, and commissioned by a panel that is entirely female, so If we simply didn't care about offending women, then I'm pretty bloody sure it would be noted in short order and addressed.

But the majority of women have clearly stated in this chain that we are offended by the word CIS. We hate it. It demeans us. It reduces us to a subset of our sex.

We do not like this word, we do not want you to use this word to describe women.

You know this now, so there is no reason, excuse, or justification for continuing to use the word to describe women.

So now that's cleared up we can go back t9 using the correct term to describe us, which is woman. Thank you

MajesticWhine · 21/02/2021 20:56

Thanks for the links @merrymouse and @cranberrieschoccyagain

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/02/2021 20:02

and recognise that the interplay between biological sex, gender identity and gender expression is complex.

In what sense? Why is gender identity or gender expression relevant to sex? People are male or female. This cannot be changed. Everything about expression is up to them. If they want to identify more with the opposite sex, fine, until their arm swinging hits my nose.

Truthlikeness · 21/02/2021 19:16

@NiceGerbil

Also what difference in service would be required for a female who identified as non binary or agender and had a feminine presentation, and a female who identifies as cis?

A verbal dance around biological reality?

SheldonesqueIsUnwell · 21/02/2021 18:40

The concept of gender identity is not 'complex'

For me it is achingly simple.

Gender identity is the choice to call yourself whatever you want to identify as.

But sex is undeniable.

You can change the outside and switch to whatever mode you want but you cannot change sex.

And given that most who choose to identify as anything choose to keep the nethers they were born with, means they are just doing it because they can - not because they must.

CranberriesChoccyAgain · 21/02/2021 18:25

This is from last year but it's a good read for anyone not too familiar with 'cis'.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/why-women-have-right-call-ourselves-women-susan-dalgety-2277147%3famp

HeronLanyon · 21/02/2021 18:17

morninglive sometimes a quick google is extremely powerful stuff. I stepped back for fear spray from you there ! I FEEL EXACTLY THE SAME.

morninglive · 21/02/2021 18:06

Not really understanding what cisgender is I googled, it and would like to say

I AM NOT FUCKING CISGENDER I AM A FUCKING WOMAN

Jesus wept!

merrymouse · 21/02/2021 18:04

I am aware most users of this subforum disagree and recognise that the interplay between biological sex, gender identity and gender expression is complex.

The concept of gender identity is not 'complex'. It just breaks down under scrutiny, particularly when you add in the concept of non-binary genders in a world of multiple genders.

For any lurkers who are interested this article explains why:

aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison

"The solution to an oppressive system that puts people into pink and blue boxes is not to create more and more boxes that are any colour but blue or pink. The solution is to tear down the boxes altogether."

NiceGerbil · 21/02/2021 17:58

Also what difference in service would be required for a female who identified as non binary or agender and had a feminine presentation, and a female who identifies as cis?