Staniland Question is so good. Can we think of others?

Why are women and girls not allowed to say no?

I have two sex assaults of children in women's toilets by natal males identifying as not male.

allongeorgia.com/georgia-education-k12/did-a-georgia-school-districts-transgender-restroom-policy-lead-to-sexual-assault-of-girl/

metro.co.uk/2019/03/16/transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-morrisons-toilet-8914577/

Is there a reason why this could only happen in a women's toilet and not a changing room?

**Oh I am aware. Lets google "sex assaults by trans woman in UK communal dressing area since say 1950" ? Or "man pretending to be trans" maybe? The myth first propogated by MassResistance has been debunked so many times and even admiited to by the organisation. Unfortunately the baseless fearmongering has unsurprisingly triggered some people. Changing room assaults are in fact very rare, especially gendered ones, changing room assaults in communal changing almost unknown.

The bottom line is that the myth has created so called 'risks' to some people. Men are not allowed in female communal changing rooms, where they still exist. Personally, I wouldn't want my daughter to go in one on her own when she was younger but it had nothing to do with a fear of trans women.**

So you are not afraid of transwomen but you are afraid of men? Why ? Men are no more likely to be violent sex offenders than males who identify as transwomen, the risk is the same according to all evidence available. If it's safe to share with transwomen, its equally safe to share with men.

Should a teenage trans girl, with a vagina, be forced to undress and shower in a communal changing room with naked men?

A girl is a child, i.e. under 18.

No child can get a neo-vagina created in the UK.

Even if you are writing girl when you mean woman, which is derogatory btw, then this is still not an argument for opening female spaces to males.

Saying "no you can't come into the female changing" is not then requiring the transwoman to be forced to undress and shower in a communal changing room with naked men

Women said no to one option. Men can still go and find other solutions. Like being kind to each other, creating third spaces, and a whole bunch of other things. Furthermore before a male goes as far as having a neo-vagina created and his male genitalia removed I would sincerely hope the medical team make sure the person understands the impact of that in society, which would mean considering such things as how they will change for the gym, etc.

Your supposition there is dangerously close to the kind of logic some men (and women) use after a break up. "I will turn to drink if you don't get back with me" and then when the ex refuses to go back to him, he tells people "She is forcing me to drink" or "She is sooo unsupportive of me staying sober"

Should any young adult man regardless of his genital appearance, be forced to undress and shower in a communal changing room with other naked men of his own sex?"

Of course not. No-one is forced to undress or shower in communal changing rooms where other members of their own sex are undressing.

"Is he entitled to though?"
Absolutely, he is. He's a member of that sex, and those facilities are for him. He's entitled to use them, and he's entitled to expect all female people should be excluded from them. These are his sex-based rights.

"Is he entitled to use the facilities provided for the opposite sex, though, because he has had surgery on his genitals?"
No.
Those facilities are for female people, not male people.

Perfectly put Barracker.

Should a teenage trans girl, with a vagina, be forced to undress and shower in a communal changing room with naked men?

I reject your language choice to describe that scenario as I think it is inaccurate, but when I reframe the hypothetical question in the framework of reality the answer is crystal clear.

Here's how I'd phrase the same scenario, using language that reflects the reality of sex and legal sex-based rights, and sex-based pronouns for the hypothetical young person in this scenario.

"Should any young adult man regardless of his genital appearance, be forced to undress and shower in a communal changing room with other naked men of his own sex?"

Of course not. No-one is forced to undress or shower in communal changing rooms where other members of their own sex are undressing.

"Is he entitled to though?"
Absolutely, he is. He's a member of that sex, and those facilities are for him. He's entitled to use them, and he's entitled to expect all female people should be excluded from them. These are his sex-based rights.

"Is he entitled to use the facilities provided for the opposite sex, though, because he has had surgery on his genitals?"
No.
Those facilities are for female people, not male people.

A specific question for when someone's using the suicide card to demand we sit back and shut up or we'll have forced trans people to kill themselves...

"If someone is threatening suicide are they in a suitable state of mind to give true consent to irreversibly life changing drugs or surgery?"

Actually, it is not the nice and kind transwomen I have a problem with, it is the ones demanding they can have access based on nothing more than their say-so. Every single time someone argues transwomen must have access or else,I just think those are the very people I want to avoid.

And as I don't know if a transwoman is the be-kind type or the or-else type, blanket ban on all males in the female facility. It is also not as if they need the female facilities, they have no need of sanitary bins, they can use the stalls in the mens just as easily.

Who has ever said it's not acceptable. The problem when it doesn't exist. There is no push from trans people to get into communal spaces, that's why you never see trans people in communal changing spaces.

I've certainly seen women on message boards in Canada who seem to think it is a problem. It's also a problem with trans-identifying children in schools, as numerous threads on here attest to.

I actually agree with you, jj in that I think many mtf transitioners would not feel comfortable in a female changing room and would avoid such a situation.

However, I am also quite, quite sure that a certain type of transitioner would very much like to be in that space. I am also quite sure that there are certain men (not trans) who would exploit the situation to their own advantage.

This is why we need laws and clarity over who can use these spaces. This is why I get very concerned when I see gyms stating that they segregate by 'gender identity', not sex.

You might not be pushing for it, but there are people who are.

Should a teenage trans girl, with a vagina, be forced to undress and shower in a communal changing room with naked men?

Teenage means under 20? So male child who has had their penis removed and a hole created by surgery, who is under 20 years old.

As surgery is not permitted under 18, that leaves this imaginery person to have had this surgery in two years, including all the pre op treatments, medication, etc, raised the money, had the surgery, recovered and is using a communal changing room for .. sports? Swimming?

Sorry, but seeing as this surgery is only carried out a handful of times in the UK on adults every year (and who the hell operates on a teen for this) I call bullshit scenario.

Re Communal changing rooms
they are discriminatory towards some minority religions
Which ones?
Which religions ban women getting changed in all female communal areas
and trans people
as above, the transwoman at my gym is quite happy in the gents, where they have always gone
and they are a safeguarding risk in the days that everyone has a video camera in their pockets
If that were true,
how would allowing mixed sex changing rooms make it better?

“Little pigs, little pigs, let me come in. No, not by the hair of our chinny-chin-chin! Well, I'll huff and I'll puff, and I'll blow your house in.”

The bottom line is that the myth has created so called 'risks' to some people. Men are not allowed in female communal changing rooms, where they still exist. Personally, I wouldn't want my daughter to go in one on her own when she was younger but it had nothing to do with a fear of trans women.

I fail to see how communal changing spaces in places where it makes sense to keep them, supplemented with a small number of cubicles for those who need them, is not an acceptable solution.

Who has ever said it's not acceptable. The problem when it doesn't exist. There is no push from trans people to get into communal spaces, that's why you never see trans people in communal changing spaces.

I haven't read her analysis of Maya's case.

Perhaps you should.

The risks may not be equivalent

Thanks jj, for admitting it. No one said there was no risk at all. But as you acknowledge, the risks are vastly different because males commit most sexual offences by some margin.

If I can't shower with women and girls, then women and girls must be banned from sharing communal space with each other entirely

I keep hearing those voices as well.

Why should women care at all what men think about our preferences for our own changing areas, I wonder?

That's right. We don't.
I imagine that stings a little for men to hear how irrelevant their thoughts are on how we women change and in whose company we consent to do it.

Ah well.

I didn't know that some religions don't allow women to share communal changing with other women. I must admit, I was brought up in a very evangelical Christian church and 'modesty' was a big thing. I certainly was taught that it wasn't acceptable for women to strip naked in the changing rooms without covering up with a towel (although naturally no such rules applied to men ) but we weren't forbidden from actually using facilities at all.

Also surprisingly, women inmates are more likely to be abused by other inmates than are male inmates, disrupting the long held view that sexual violence in prison is mainly about men assaulting men. In juvenile corrections facilities, female staff are also a much more significant threat than male staff; more than nine in ten juveniles who reported staff sexual victimization were abused by a woman.

www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/

I find the whole insistence that communal changing rooms must be maintained at all costs a bit creepy tbh.

Funny how gender critical barrister Karon Monaghan QC didn't seem to think blanket bans on trans women from all women's spaces were legal when questioned by the WESC the other day.

She's not a "gender critical barrister" she's just a barrister who looked at the judgement in the Maya Forstater case and found it wanting. So is her legal opinion only accurate when she agrees with you or do you also agree with her about Maya?