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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Staniland Question is so good. Can we think of others?

511 replies

aliasundercover · 17/02/2021 11:10

The Staniland question:
Do you believe that male-sexed people have the right to undress and shower in a communal changing room with teenage girls?
is so clever. The fact that so many people refuse to engage with it - let alone answer it - means it's a quick, powerful, way of showing how ridiculous the TWAW position is.

Can we think of any others that would be as effective? Maybe we could come up with 5 or so really sharp questions that TRAs could refuse to answer. My first thoughts are something along the lines of:
Why is it racist to identify as another race but stunning and brave to identify as another sex?
I'm sure somebody can word that better.

So any suggestions? The questions need to be short and clear.

OP posts:
malloo · 18/02/2021 08:10

Barracker

Part 1: Should 'transwomen' be allowed to distinguish themselves from members of the male sex, or should they be forced to share space unwillingly?

Part 2: Should women be allowed to?

Barracker nails it, as always :)

WarriorN · 18/02/2021 08:08

@jj1968

Should a trans man, with a penis, have the right to undress and shower in a communal changing room with teenage girls?

Should a trans man be expected to have life endangering surgery in order to be able to present as "male?"

newyearnewname123 · 18/02/2021 07:40

Some great questions on here, and good explanations of why some seem like they would "work" but get side-stepped.

It's come to something though that these quite are needed. I look forward to the day that sanity returns to public discourse.

NotBadConsidering · 18/02/2021 07:28

Why do we segregate by sex in the first place?

A famous transwoman, who was on puberty blockers as a child, then cross sex hormones and then surgery, is on public record as saying they have never and will never experience orgasm. Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

HamsterV2 · 18/02/2021 06:35

As someone who is trans..

If transwomen, who identify as/with women, feel unsafe in biological male spaces then why should women share spaces with biological males too?

EdgeOfACoin · 18/02/2021 05:58

@Barracker

Part 1: Should 'transwomen' be allowed to distinguish themselves from members of the male sex, or should they be forced to share space unwillingly?

Part 2: Should women be allowed to?

That's a great question.
oldwomanwhoruns · 18/02/2021 05:33

@barracker I really like your part 1 & 2 (above).
It exposes the mysogeny so clearly Smile

OnceUponANightmare · 18/02/2021 01:45

@Cloudyz7

If you took 100 babies (hypothetically of course!) off to an isolated island and raised them in a completely gender neutral environment (names, hairstyles, clothes, pronouns, toys etc), how would a 'transchild' express to others that they were trans or 'born in the wrong body'?
This!!!
HeadIsFucked · 18/02/2021 01:13

@CranberriesChoccyAgain

If aggressive men can enter a women's toilet at any time if they really wanted to assault a woman, why do transwomen think it's safer in there than the men's toilets?
Given sex and gender are not the same thing (acknowledged by both sides. One of the only things on paper they agree on), why does changing ones gender, have any bearing whatsoever on single sex spaces? Why claim gender is different, but then at the same time try to conflate it with sex, despite them being different things, as agreed!
Barracker · 18/02/2021 01:07

Part 1: Should 'transwomen' be allowed to distinguish themselves from members of the male sex, or should they be forced to share space unwillingly?

Part 2: Should women be allowed to?

Xoxoxoxoxoxox · 18/02/2021 01:05

If a prisoner identifies as a woman only some of the time (such as Pippa Bunce) would it be right to drive them between male and female prisons depending on how they felt that day?

also:
Should a woman be punished for not wanting to get undressed with a transwoman?

(There was a girl in the USA removed from a changing room at a school for objecting to changing with a male to f trans student).

Barracker · 18/02/2021 01:03

"To be legally covered under the protected characteristic "gender reassignment" one must be, at the bare minimum, proposing to undergo a process to change one's "physiological or other attributes of sex".

What are the physiological attributes of sex, why are they important, and how can they be changed in a meaningful way?

HeadIsFucked · 18/02/2021 00:53

@CranberriesChoccyAgain

If aggressive men can enter a women's toilet at any time if they really wanted to assault a woman, why do transwomen think it's safer in there than the men's toilets?
This is an excellent point.

And one that is just constantly dodged. As at that stage, transwomen do not want int the womens because they are scared of men, its because 'thats where the women go' or something a bit more like 'because thats where women go, women like me. You must accept me as a woman the exact same way that you accept that black women are women otherwise you are discriminating against women' (or other racist analogy here) Hmm

LucretiaBourgeois · 18/02/2021 00:37

Pips Bunce identifies as a woman three days of the week, and as a man the rest of the time. Pips has won prizes for achievement as a senior woman in business.

If TWAW, is Pips literally a woman on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays?

If misgendering is a crime, what pronouns should we use for Pips on a Tuesday and a Thursday? Why would the same pronouns be acceptable on some days but literal violence on others?

In what essential way is Pips different on woman days from Pips on man days?

Whatwouldscullydo · 17/02/2021 23:40

You have all asked most of them.

I would just like to know why,

When the choice was there to fight with our help for third spaces and extra provisions, why It was decided to completely demolish womens rights.

And why is anger always directed at women for saying no. And not those who got greedy, flew to close to the sun and ruined it for eveeyone.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/02/2021 23:30

It's sadly not a positive right for women to have female only spaces in many locations (although workplace toilets are supposed to be either single sex or closed cubicle).

But it is potentially creating a hostile environment of sexual harassment if women and girls have to share changing rooms etc with fetishistic cross dressers (under the trans umbrella as we all know). So in some circumstances providers of these facilities are risking a legal challenge by allowing these males in.

334bu · 17/02/2021 22:53

Another possible question:

Should the needs of male bodied people ,who identify as women , to be treated as if they were women, override the needs of women and girls to be safe in places where they are vulnerable?

jj1968 · 17/02/2021 22:49

It is specifically stated in law that this can override gender reassignment.

Only if it is a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim. Communal changing rooms might meet that test, although it would probably require a third space to be found. Changing rooms with cubicles and toilets would not. Iit's not up to the law anyway, it's up to whoever owns the premises. If a shop or service is happy to let trans people use toilets/changing rooms inline with their gender there is nothing to legally prevent that. And pretty much all of them do.

Darcinian · 17/02/2021 22:47

No legal right to say no to men.

Wrong but interesting to see it presented as a desirable outcome.

wellthatsunusual · 17/02/2021 22:46

@jj1968

Yes, I expect TW will continue to tend to use the disabled changing or other mixed sex option instead of the men's.

Disabled changing spaces are for disabled people. Mixed sex options rarely exist. And in the vast majority of cases you do not have the right to say no, that's democracy I'm afraid, you don't get to ignore laws you don't like.

Well that's ironic...
Darcinian · 17/02/2021 22:42

@jj1968

Yes, I expect TW will continue to tend to use the disabled changing or other mixed sex option instead of the men's.

Disabled changing spaces are for disabled people. Mixed sex options rarely exist. And in the vast majority of cases you do not have the right to say no, that's democracy I'm afraid, you don't get to ignore laws you don't like.

You seem to be misinformed about the law.

The right to single sex spaces is enshrined in law.

It is specifically stated in law that this can override gender reassignment.

Darcinian · 17/02/2021 22:38

Back to the original question.

Should everything be made mixed sex? If not, why not?

jj1968 · 17/02/2021 22:37

Yes, I expect TW will continue to tend to use the disabled changing or other mixed sex option instead of the men's.

Disabled changing spaces are for disabled people. Mixed sex options rarely exist. And in the vast majority of cases you do not have the right to say no, that's democracy I'm afraid, you don't get to ignore laws you don't like.

334bu · 17/02/2021 22:36

Yes it needs to end. Third spaces should be available for those people who don't wish to use facilities designated for their own sex. However, for the privacy of both sexes male and female separate facilities should be just that.

Darcinian · 17/02/2021 22:33

@jj1968

That is not how most trans people have behaved for decades. If it were then there would have been a debate for decades.

It really is. I've known a lot of trans people, going back 30 years, and I don't know a single one who used toilets and changing rooms inline with their sex at birth. I do know a few who self-exclude from things like swimming baths and gyms because of communal changing rooms, but I don't know any trans women who would use the men's.

Yes, I expect TW will continue to tend to use the disabled changing or other mixed sex option instead of the men's.

So long as women continue to have the right to say no to TW using the women's as an alternative then everyone's fine.

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