Staniland Question is so good. Can we think of others?

The demand that everywhere that provides single sex spaces should immediately construct a third space and that this must not impact on the women's space in any possible way virtually defies the laws of physics. It's highly unlikely that this could realistically even be achieved in many buildings let alone whether the public could be persuaded to support it.

I think you're confusing us with someone who gives a fuck. It isn't women's problem to solve. We have the right to say no to having men in our spaces, both for privacy and for safety. It doesn't matter how much you squeal about it or call us Terfs or yammer on about how unsafe it is to change around men (guess what - we know!) you still don't get to invade women's spaces. As Winesalot said yesterday:

The answer is still No!

I can refuse to undress in the presence of a harmless elderly man, an infirm man, a man who cannot see, a man who isn't sexually attracted to me, and a male brother, father or cousin who loves and would never harm me, all because I am the opposite sex to them all.
Women's right to privacy and dignity rests entirely upon sex, not upon the level of potential physical harm they might be exposed to from the presence of men.

'Harm' is not the ultimate boundary.
Privacy from the opposite sex is.

Why should any male person ever be permitted to override any woman's right to the dignity and boundaries of her sex, ever?

There's always an excuse though isn't there.

It's not an excuse. The demand that everywhere that provides single sex spaces should immediately construct a third space and that this must not impact on the women's space in any possible way virtually defies the laws of physics. It's highly unlikely that this could realistically even be achieved in many buildings let alone whether the public could be persuaded to support it.

[quote jj1968]@sanluca

If the men's was just made mixed sex and the women's stayed the same then the men's would end up being the mens and the women's the women's. It wouldn't change anything. And I doubt men would put up with the inconvenience of scrapping urinals, which would also involve significant reconstruction work.[/quote]
The men wouldn't tolerate sacrifice for other males so the women must sacrifice themselves to meet male needs. Nice.

Proper misogyny that.

The problem is for males to sort out between themselves.

@sanluca

If the men's was just made mixed sex and the women's stayed the same then the men's would end up being the mens and the women's the women's. It wouldn't change anything. And I doubt men would put up with the inconvenience of scrapping urinals, which would also involve significant reconstruction work.

There's always an excuse though isn't there. No ones actually interested until women lose out.

Answer is always take away never to add. It's why rather than fight for men/males only gym /pool sessions people would rather just remove the women only ones.

How we treat transmen in female spaces is a totally different topic to how we treat transwomen.

The issue is not with trans.

The issue is with males.

A solution that would have worked was third spaces. Some thing most people would have been happy to donate to or fight for etc

I just don't believe that. When discussing communal changing rooms even on here many people objected to their abolition due to the cost/disruption. And given this demand usually comes with the caveat that space for women must not be reduced in the slightest then any third space would take up space from the men's - who would also probably object. As would business owners and council tax payers expected to foot the bill.

Of course this could all be prevented by getting rid of communal changing rooms, which for some reason seems wildly unpopular on here, almost as if some people don't really want a solution that works for everyone because this isn't really about single sex spaces but about driving trans people out of society.

No, jj, a third space or no more communal spaces would be great. But we know two things: most older building don't have the space so it won't happen.
What will happen is that the womens is changed and the mens stay the same, basically giving women half the facilities they used to have.

A good solution would be to make the mens mixed or single cubicles and leave the womens alone. Why not campaign for that, jj?

Realistically communal changing rooms are always going to exist - schools have them so teachers can keep an eye on a whole class at a time for example. And schools often rent out their facilities. Leisure centres have them, private gyms have them. Asking those to have third spaces will be a lot cheaper than asking them to demolish their existing facilities and put up 1 or 2 person cubicles which won't provide enough spaces for all users.

How do the feelings of a small number of people reduce women's need for safety?

You might not mind, I'm sure plenty of people would mind someone who is virtually indistinguishable from other men exposing their genitals in spaces where teenage girls are undressing.

I expect plenty of people would mind. You seem to think that is something reasonable to object to.

I expect more people would mind actual men being in women's changing rooms. Yet this is ridiculous to object to.

Fascinating. And that's why the Staniland question is so good, it explicitly states what women men want to happen.

A solution that would have worked was third spaces. Some thing most people would have been happy to donate to or fight for etc

Why blame women ? It wasn't us who broadened the term trans to mean anyone amd everyone who doesn't conform to stereotypes and vastly increased the numbers we are talking about. That's not on us. Take it up with those responsible

Consistency matters.

It certainly does. Knowing that when someone says the word woman they are referring to an adult human female makes life a lot more straightforward.

A man is not and can never be a woman.

Why are you trying to persuade me a man can be a woman? I think that would be one of my questions.

Transmen are female. They have every right to use the female facilities.. I'm.not worried about females however they present regardless of any attempts at surgery.

You might not mind, I'm sure plenty of people would mind someone who is virtually indistinguishable from other men exposing their genitals in spaces where teenage girls are undressing.

Of course this could all be prevented by getting rid of communal changing rooms, which for some reason seems wildly unpopular on here, almost as if some people don't really want a solution that works for everyone because this isn't really about single sex spaces but about driving trans people out of society.

Should a trans man, who has had genital surgery, have the right to undress and shower in a communal changing room with teenage girls?

I don't see why not. They're women, and as such don't pose a threat to teenage girls.

Why not take a look at the number of male-to-female trans people in prison for sex offences, and then look at the number of female-to-male trans people in prison for sex offences? Educate yourself.

Another question:

Should male HCPs be allowed to conduct intimate examinations on female patients without a female chaperone, if the male HCP says that they identify as a woman?

But that is the issue, isn't it? Thank to trans ideology consistency is out of the window. We used to not have that much of a problem with transexuals, we were kind. Then in marched ideology that having a penis doesn't mean you can't barge into womens spaces and any women who objects, should leave.

So no, jj, the fact some transgender people have sex reassignment surgery, does not mean all males can come into womens spaces. Still a no.

Transmen are female. They have every right to use the female facilities.. I'm.not worried about females however they present regardless of any attempts at surgery.

If they use the mens and men.objevt they can start their own fight. It's their problem and we are too busy fighting for even being allowed a word to concern ourselves with doing mens jobs fir them too.

What we don't consent to is males.of any presentation. Especially those who don't usually give a damn about consent until they feel they can use it against us.

And you have the right to consent on behalf of any woman who might object do you?

You are quite right jj , as a woman I can only speak for myself. However, I assume, the space being used is one that has been designated for the use of the female sex, so what possible right would I have to bar any member of that sex from using the facility? Transmen are all members of the female sex and therefore have the same rights as I to use these spaces.

So now consent matters

Should a trans man, with a penis, have the right to undress and shower in a communal changing room with teenage girls?

That cannot happen. Transmen are female. They might have had surgery to create a vaguely penis looking piece of flesh. It is not a penis.

So, yes, it is fine for any transman to be in communal changing with teenage girls.