Pronouns

Still finding my way on this tbh. It's currently about how much cognitive dissonance it causes me more than any principled stand. Someone who doesn't even try to pass demanding pronouns may be more likely to trigger dissonance both subconsciously and because it feels more like they're doing it as a way of bullying.

I think of it as a case of treating someone else's religion respectfully. I will sit quietly in church and wear long sleeves if asked to. I won't say amen or cover my head, if those are a requirement I won't attend. And depending on circumstance, pronouns feels like sitting quietly or saying amen. The more people try to impose gender religion on us, the less willing I become to even go near the church, as it becomes a matter of conscience to stand up for nonbelief.

I've never met Blaire White in person but I genuinely couldn't think of her as "he". It's not just politeness.

There was another TW who at the time I automatically called 'she'. Female name, wrote sensible stuff, it didn't occur to me not to.
But then as I learned more, I realised how much this person wasn't a woman. The writing wasn't for women's benefit other than tangentially - no reason why it should have been, of course, trans people are absolutely entitled to their own agendas. Using a female pronoun muddied motivations and understanding, and also I came to realise it was problematic for other women on this board in particular some of the trans widows. I realised it's massively discourteous to them to use female pronouns of someone who has been, or is, a husband. So on this board, I'm going to prioritise their feelings.

They really are a sinister bunch! No concessions at all for the deeply held beliefs and convictions of others. We are to be forced to validate them however much it goes against our own conscience and mental well-being. Even if we try to find a compromise which avoids offending them by correctly sexing them but keeps true to our own perceptions that is still a form of “violence”.

It really isn’t about live and let live is it?

Personally I am not comfortable using a plural for a known person, it messes with my head. I would use the person’s name and find ways of avoiding pronouns. Generally I would do my best to avoid people who want to dictate to me the words I must use and do my best to avoid talking about any of them I can’t avoid.

It begins to feel like a new age of deference for a new ruling class.

I feel uncomfortable with pronouns being a 'reward' - whether that be for someone's effort/luck in passing or because someone isnt a misogynistic arsehole.

I think it's partly due to me seeing phrases like 'run/jump/throw/cry like a girl' as insults. I feel like I've known for a long time that to call a boy a girl is a Bad Thing. It felt wrong then and it still does.

Online, I personally try to use names and/or initials and I try to be consistent to avoid any accidental wrongthink use of anything that could be deleted.

I've spent my entire life saying "she" for people who look like women, "he" for people who look like men, and feeling uncomfortable and fudging it on the rare occasions when I'm not sure. It's cognitively much easier to use she for a transwoman who looks a lot like a woman than for one who doesn't, because that's what our brains are used to doing.

I'm hard-line no on false pronouns when I'm aware of the sex of the person in question. That includes people who 'pass' like Blaire White. If I was in a situation like that I would just use their name so as to avoid offending anyone. In all honesty I would probably just avoid any person who was the type to be narcissistic enough to make those sorts of demands of people.

[quote notyourhandmaid]@JellySlice oh agree, yes. Should have been clearer - have noticed/wondered about pronoun use, but not in the same pattern of usage that you're talking about. I noticed a lot of 'she' on a thread about Blaire White a while back, for example. That felt like a deliberate politeness but maybe it is more to do with 'passing'.[/quote]
I've never met Blaire White in person but I genuinely couldn't think of her as "he". It's not just politeness.

It depends on whether I like the person or not. I would always use "she" for Blaire and Rose of Dawn and "he" for Buck Angel ; for unpleasant people I would use the name, not they.

On a slightly similar tangent for anyone I don't like I use their surname only on here with no first name or title.

Weirdly enough, even though I've been somewhat ...stubborn ...in some of my view on the issue, does anyone remember the footage of India Willoughby in CBB shouting and bawling at an 80 odd year old woman for accidentally using a he?

Amanda Barrie apologised profusely and said what would you like me to do now? But India had no response other than I am a WOMAN.

I think pronouns should be used, but I think berating of genuine mistakes is more likely to stigmatise it.

removes splinters from arse

For many trans/GNC people, gender is an important part of their identity

For many GNC people, gender is a box to be liberated from.
I'm pretty sure compelled speech could be characterised as a form of 'violence'.

Repeat after me...

I try to go with "they" or their name. I expect using "they" in this way is a microaggression.

After writing that I thought I might check and hey presto:

For many trans/GNC people, gender is an important part of their identity and actively avoiding the act of gendering manifests as another form of violence—a violence that trans/GNC people have been fighting against throughout the long history of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, intersex, asexual and two-spirit (LGBTQIA2S) experience.

blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/actually-we-should-not-all-use-they-them-pronouns/

Expect to see the use of "they" becoming a hate crime, that is at the moment a trans person says they personally don't like it.

It's about control.

I generally try to avoid pronouns if I find they make what I'm writing less clear.

Using a pronoun of the wrong sex makes writing less clear. Using a pronoun that a person wouldn't like is discourteous, but requiring a writer to use a pronoun they're not comfortable with is too.

There's nearly always a way to avoid them without being stilted.

Once I know, I know.
So although some people do a better job of gaslighting people about their sex than others, once I'm actually aware of a person's sex, I just don't participate in the façade. At all. Obviously that's easy enough to do do in thoughts and in speech with like-minded people, less so on forums where you'll be banned for it.
It helps that I can speak and write in an uninhibited way in other private arenas with other people who thankfully also refer to individuals without a trace of gaslighting. Including declining to use ladynames where those are chosen to be a tool to gaslight too.

For example, referring to a man you know was called John and who was a violent porn advocate exactly as he is, rather than as he would demand you refer to him, is like a breath of fresh air.

I understand why people feel compelled to comply. I would encourage everyone to find an outlet where the truth is not unsayable. It's a weight off when you can.

I will use they or their name. I feel very uncomfortable using male/female pronouns for people who are of the opposite male/female sex

We currently have real time language instruction on Radio 4:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000s9vj

It started with Michael Rosen giving a grovelling apology for wrongspeak in the past.

Probably on here Jelly the politeness is mistakes for coerced speech via the guidelines a Clymene says.

I avoid them because of the guidelines but the burden of linguistic gymnastics is on me then to say what I think (freedom of expression) but within coerced speech (guidelines) or risk the ban hammer.

Blair does pass quite well, but it's worth noting there have been a few surgeries to help the process. Facial feminisation and breast augmentation (?). I worry that it's something most TW couldn't afford and it sets perhaps an unrealistic goal for transition. As for pronouns, most people will use what seems most accurate. I'm not really surprised people use 'she' for BW but struggle for those who are less convincing (apologies if that's offensive) like a well-known comedian of late. It's silly to think we don't rely on our eyes and ears to form opinions.

I tend avoid them generally, but will do what I feel comfortable with.
I do use 'he' pronouns for Buck Angel for example, simply because he's stuck up for women, has refused to deny biology and has got a lot of abuse from trans activists for it.
I don't always agree with Buck but I do think he's a decent person who wants to find a respectful way forward for everyone. I feel quite comfortable using preferred pronouns there.
However, there is no way on earth I would use 'she' pronouns for anyone like JY or others who are similarly abusive or running roughshod over women's rights and boundaries. Absolutely not. Then I'll either avoid it completely or use their names.

@JellySlice oh agree, yes. Should have been clearer - have noticed/wondered about pronoun use, but not in the same pattern of usage that you're talking about. I noticed a lot of 'she' on a thread about Blaire White a while back, for example. That felt like a deliberate politeness but maybe it is more to do with 'passing'.

For me personally, I would call Blaire or Laverne by their names where possible.

This seems an opportune moment to link to Barracker's excellent article on why pronouns matter: www.keep-prisons-single-sex.org.uk/pronouns-are-rohypnol

I use preferred pronouns on MN purely because I know it's bannable if I don't. Fwiw I don't think of Laverne Cox as more of a she than Alex Drummond