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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Q&A thread for New Posters

613 replies

CharlieParley · 14/02/2021 10:41

Welcome to the FWR board and welcome to the debate. If you're new here and have been told your questions might be better on their own thread, but you're not comfortable starting your own, then please feel free to ask your question here.

I'll try my best to answer and some of our other regulars might pop in too.

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Helen8220 · 14/02/2021 12:38

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Datun · 14/02/2021 12:37

@Helen8220

On a slightly different point, setting aside non-binary people, i’ve definitely met quite a few trans men who I would absolutely have assumed were born men, had I not known in the context they were trans. I’ve met a couple of trans women who similarly ‘passed’, though that’s not as common
Same answer.
Datun · 14/02/2021 12:37

@Lordamighty

sealioning I once got a deletion for giving an accurate description of what sealioning is on a thread where someone was sealioning as a way of derailment. I didn’t accuse anyone but the sealion obviously didn’t like it & reported the post.
Yes, despite me thinking it's weird, it can be an effective tactic.
Helen8220 · 14/02/2021 12:36

On a slightly different point, setting aside non-binary people, i’ve definitely met quite a few trans men who I would absolutely have assumed were born men, had I not known in the context they were trans. I’ve met a couple of trans women who similarly ‘passed’, though that’s not as common

Datun · 14/02/2021 12:36

It’s not a hypothetical question - it’s a real question about real people and where they fit in the world

The question gets asked, regularly. The answer is, you go to the facility of your sex. Or you campaign for a third space.

The point is, it's not relevant to sex segregation. We don't decide to not have sex segregation, because of the small number of people who won't abide by it.

Lordamighty · 14/02/2021 12:33

sealioning I once got a deletion for giving an accurate description of what sealioning is on a thread where someone was sealioning as a way of derailment. I didn’t accuse anyone but the sealion obviously didn’t like it & reported the post.

Helen8220 · 14/02/2021 12:33

I have to say, given this thread was set up to allow people like me to ask their questions, your answers don’t seem to me to be engaging in good faith with what I’ve asked.

I do not have a visual impairment. Clearly I can’t convince you that I couldn’t tell the biological sex of these people, but it is true. I am also not especially young, and I’ve met a variety of people. If I’d been forced to take a guess I probably could have put my money one way or the other, but I really wouldn’t have been surprised to find out I was wrong.

It’s not a hypothetical question - it’s a real question about real people and where they fit in the world

Landlockedgirl · 14/02/2021 12:30

New here but oldish. In the 80s we just called people by the name they introduced themselves as. This applied to gay, straight, transsexual or androgynous people (the terms we tended to use back then). It all seemed so much easier.

Helen8220 · 14/02/2021 12:27

“ JoodyBlue

I think I may have been guilty in the past of sealioning. Because in a discussion I kept bringing the conversation back to "what is a woman?" In discussion with a TRA the answer is "anyone who feels like woman" and the rejoiner is "what does a woman feel like?" etc. The question is foundational which is why I kept asking it. In the end the person I was "conversing" with called me a curious bigot and flounced off. Do you reckon I was sealioning there guys?”

I can’t answer the second question, but as someone you might well consider a ‘trans rights activist’, can I attempt to give an explanation of what I think gender identity is, other than ‘it’s just what you feel like’?

I believe a person’s gender identity is the part of their sense of self that results from growing up and living in a society where everyone is publicly labelled as male or female from birth, and subjected to a variety of powerful norms and expectations relating to that categorisation.

Regardless of the fact that my parents are pretty anti gender norms, and encouraged both me and my brother to wear/play with what we wanted regardless of whether they were typically for girls or boys, the influence of the media, other children, school etc inevitably played a big role in forming my sense of myself as a female. And I’m not trans, so I have accepted and incorporated all of that into my identity - I identify as a woman, and that means that I present myself in a way that causes others to automatically recognise me as a woman - I wear women’s clothes, I have long hair, i walk and talk in a certain way.

It’s complicated, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t real.

fakenina · 14/02/2021 12:24

@JoodyBlue

I think I may have been guilty in the past of sealioning. Because in a discussion I kept bringing the conversation back to "what is a woman?" In discussion with a TRA the answer is "anyone who feels like woman" and the rejoiner is "what does a woman feel like?" etc. The question is foundational which is why I kept asking it. In the end the person I was "conversing" with called me a curious bigot and flounced off. Do you reckon I was sealioning there guys?
I'd say no, as it is a genuine question. When I ask this question to people who ascribe to gender idology I want to hear what they have to say just in case anyone actually does one day give an explination of why someone born one sex is really the other sex. I never exclude the possibillity that it could happen.
tootyfruitypickle · 14/02/2021 12:22

Following

fakenina · 14/02/2021 12:20

@Helen8220

Thanks for setting this up!

Here’s a question I was thinking about last night - I have met a few non-binary people who I can’t tell what their ‘biological sex’ is. I don’t think it’s my business to ask about their medical history/genitalia. I am happy to use the pronouns they ask me to use.

There will obviously be people in their lives who know what biological sex characteristics they have - those involved in their medical treatment, sexual partners. There will also be certain authorities that have the information, given the law currently requires people’s biological sex to be registered (but one could dispute if that should be the case).

In terms of how that person moves through their everyday life - how people refer to them, what spaces they’re allowed into - what do you think should happen?

ok, so I'll say it. I am doubtful that you have actually met anyone who you could not tell if they were male or female. I am not young and have been in many varied situations, cultures, people expressing themselvs in many ways including experimenting with fashions, makeup hair, whatever but I have never been in a situation where I could genuinly not tell if someone was a man or woman, never, not once.
Datun · 14/02/2021 12:20

@JoodyBlue

I think I may have been guilty in the past of sealioning. Because in a discussion I kept bringing the conversation back to "what is a woman?" In discussion with a TRA the answer is "anyone who feels like woman" and the rejoiner is "what does a woman feel like?" etc. The question is foundational which is why I kept asking it. In the end the person I was "conversing" with called me a curious bigot and flounced off. Do you reckon I was sealioning there guys?
You're drilling down into an illogical argument, to expose their motivation.

That's not sea lioning.

Sea lioning is to divert people from their purpose by asking silly questions.

prisencolinensinainciusol2 · 14/02/2021 12:18

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Datun · 14/02/2021 12:15

@Helen8220

Thanks for setting this up!

Here’s a question I was thinking about last night - I have met a few non-binary people who I can’t tell what their ‘biological sex’ is. I don’t think it’s my business to ask about their medical history/genitalia. I am happy to use the pronouns they ask me to use.

There will obviously be people in their lives who know what biological sex characteristics they have - those involved in their medical treatment, sexual partners. There will also be certain authorities that have the information, given the law currently requires people’s biological sex to be registered (but one could dispute if that should be the case).

In terms of how that person moves through their everyday life - how people refer to them, what spaces they’re allowed into - what do you think should happen?

You see, to me, that question has no answer. It's a hypothetical person, in a hypothetical situation, that doesn't require a solution. Albeit, a completely hypothetical one.

It's irrelevant to women's rights and the policy of sex segregation.

It's a question that is pointless as a question, and the answer would be equally pointless.

Helen8220 · 14/02/2021 12:13

“ TheLaughingGenome

How do you know they're 'non-binary', out of interest?”

Either because they’ve explicitly stated it, or because they’ve asked people to use they/them pronouns. I should explain this is generally in the context of LGBT+ events I've attended in my role as co-chair of my workplace LGBT+ network

JoodyBlue · 14/02/2021 12:12

Also would the Staniland question count as sealioning under that description?

JoodyBlue · 14/02/2021 12:11

I think I may have been guilty in the past of sealioning. Because in a discussion I kept bringing the conversation back to "what is a woman?" In discussion with a TRA the answer is "anyone who feels like woman" and the rejoiner is "what does a woman feel like?" etc. The question is foundational which is why I kept asking it. In the end the person I was "conversing" with called me a curious bigot and flounced off. Do you reckon I was sealioning there guys?

TheLaughingGenome · 14/02/2021 12:10

How do you know they're 'non-binary', out of interest?

Helen8220 · 14/02/2021 12:02

Thanks for setting this up!

Here’s a question I was thinking about last night - I have met a few non-binary people who I can’t tell what their ‘biological sex’ is. I don’t think it’s my business to ask about their medical history/genitalia. I am happy to use the pronouns they ask me to use.

There will obviously be people in their lives who know what biological sex characteristics they have - those involved in their medical treatment, sexual partners. There will also be certain authorities that have the information, given the law currently requires people’s biological sex to be registered (but one could dispute if that should be the case).

In terms of how that person moves through their everyday life - how people refer to them, what spaces they’re allowed into - what do you think should happen?

Thelnebriati · 14/02/2021 11:58

I haven't heard that word for it before, but when I see people on Twitter repeatedly asking women to describe just exactly why they feel vulnerable in mixed sex toilets I'm immediately reminded of the heavy breather phone calls we used to get in pre-1471 days.

Yes, and that's why forcing women to disclose discomfort or abuse to get the services we should have by default is borderline abusive.
Forcing women to disclose mimics abusive behaviour, it mimics the power structure of abuse. Women shouldn't have to ask for what's our by right and we shouldn't have to disclose abuse to get it.

MaudTheInvincible · 14/02/2021 11:54

Ha! I was just going to post that very cartoon Grin

Winesalot · 14/02/2021 11:44

wondermark.com/1k62/

Here is the strip that started it all. I love it!!!

YetAnotherSpartacus · 14/02/2021 11:40

Sea lioning is a really odd one and it took me a while to get my head around it. Because asking questions is good, right?

It took me fecking ages to figure out wtf this had to do with actual sea lions before I saw the comic strip and realised it was a completely random choice of critter.

I do kind of feel as if the poor sea lions have been a bit maligned though.

Datun · 14/02/2021 11:31

I haven't heard that word for it before, but when I see people on Twitter repeatedly asking women to describe just exactly why they feel vulnerable in mixed sex toilets I'm immediately reminded of the heavy breather phone calls we used to get in pre-1471 days.

Ugh. Yes indeed. Thoroughly enjoying women's discomfort.