Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Q&A thread for New Posters

613 replies

CharlieParley · 14/02/2021 10:41

Welcome to the FWR board and welcome to the debate. If you're new here and have been told your questions might be better on their own thread, but you're not comfortable starting your own, then please feel free to ask your question here.

I'll try my best to answer and some of our other regulars might pop in too.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
JoodyBlue · 14/02/2021 13:19

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 14/02/2021 13:17

I think where we differ is on the definition of ‘woman’ - even if in theory it just denotes the class of people with xx chromosomes and accompanying sexual characteristics, the social meaning it carries is so much more complicated - if it was really as simple as biology, why would we have a system of naming and referring that meant that almost every person could immediately be identified as male or female, even without meeting them?

The social meaning is complicated because of (i) patriarchy and (ii) gender (which is a function and means of patriarchy).

My title is gender-neutral (Dr). I can and have played the 'neutrality game' before - giving only my initials and trying to write as neutrally as possible, or, even to write in a masculine (gendered) style. This is because of patriarchy, male power and gender - all of which combine to make it hard for women to me taken seriously.

Helen8220 · 14/02/2021 13:17

Thank you to everyone who has engaged with my questions genuinely here, there are lots of discussions I want to continue, but right now I’m in danger of getting in serious trouble for spending Valentine’s Day on my phone so I will have to return later....

Helen8220 · 14/02/2021 13:15

“ Landlockedgirl

*Helen8220
My comment was in reply to your question about how to “refer” to others. I tend to refer to people I’ve met by their name. Works for me.”

But you do also sometimes need pronouns, it gets a bit unwieldy otherwise

Helen8220 · 14/02/2021 13:12

“ fakenina

'I believe a person’s gender identity is the part of their sense of self that results from growing up and living in a society where everyone is publicly labelled as male or female from birth, and subjected to a variety of powerful norms and expectations relating to that categorisation.'

I agree that someones 'gender' is made up of societies predujuices about their sex, internalised or not but if you also believe this how do you explain people who say their gender identity is the oposite of their sex”

I think that some people who don’t conform to gender norms find the experience of being in a society that enforces those norms so rigidly so difficult and uncomfortable that they are happier being regarded as a different gender.

I have never believed that anyone is ‘born in the wrong body’ (though I accept many people powerfully feel that way)

Helen8220 · 14/02/2021 13:09

@CharlieParley “ However, you mention medical history in this context, which suggests that you are conflating those born unambiguously male or female who later identify as non-binary with the exceptionally rare individuals who are born with ambiguous genitalia.”

Sorry, just to clarify, I wasn’t thinking of someone intersex here - I just meant medical history in terms of the biology they were born with - and whether they have had any medical interventions in relation to their sex (eg whether they have taken cross sex hormones)

JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown · 14/02/2021 13:08

I suspect the FAQ idea is being slightly derailed. Apologies if I've contributed to that.
I think one of the more basic questions I've seen is why so many of us have a problem with being labelled 'cis'.
My answer to that one is that it is supposedly someone whose 'gender identity aligns with their sex'.
For me, I've fought against the idea that its natural for women to automatically align with gender stereotypes (long hair, manner of dress as mentioned upthread) so I have a real problem with being told that that's innate.
Being a woman isn't about how you dress or the level to which you perform femininity, and being a masculine, gender-non conforming woman doesn't make you male or less of a woman.

fakenina · 14/02/2021 13:07

'I believe a person’s gender identity is the part of their sense of self that results from growing up and living in a society where everyone is publicly labelled as male or female from birth, and subjected to a variety of powerful norms and expectations relating to that categorisation.'

I agree that someones 'gender' is made up of societies predujuices about their sex, internalised or not but if you also believe this how do you explain people who say their gender identity is the oposite of their sex

Helen8220 · 14/02/2021 13:06

@YetAnotherSpartacus thank you for an honest and thoughtful answer. The example of sitting with legs apart/together is a good one. I often sit with my legs spread pretty wide in public and in private (assuming I’m wearing leggings or jeans, which I generally am) - and I like that it makes me feel a little bit defiant.

I’m acutely conscious of the ways that gender norms have affected me psychologically - I was very overweight between 8 and 13 and often felt completely worthless as a result, because I was a dainty, pretty little girl. I was (and am) pretty flat chested, and for years felt unsexy and unwomanly. When I first went out with my current partner, in my mid-twenties, having previously mostly dated men, it took some time to get used to the feeling of being with someone smaller and weaker than me. I’m pleased to say that as I approach 40 I am mostly at ease with my body, but I know how much those processes fed into making me who I am.

I think where we differ is on the definition of ‘woman’ - even if in theory it just denotes the class of people with xx chromosomes and accompanying sexual characteristics, the social meaning it carries is so much more complicated - if it was really as simple as biology, why would we have a system of naming and referring that meant that almost every person could immediately be identified as male or female, even without meeting them?

Until we have a social sphere in which people don’t have to declare the details of their biology simply to enter into interactions with other people, I think it’s entirely understandable that some people that don’t sit comfortably in the class they’ve been sorted into should want to present - and be recognised as - something other than a member of that class

CharlieParley · 14/02/2021 13:05

@Helen8220

Thanks for setting this up!

Here’s a question I was thinking about last night - I have met a few non-binary people who I can’t tell what their ‘biological sex’ is. I don’t think it’s my business to ask about their medical history/genitalia. I am happy to use the pronouns they ask me to use.

There will obviously be people in their lives who know what biological sex characteristics they have - those involved in their medical treatment, sexual partners. There will also be certain authorities that have the information, given the law currently requires people’s biological sex to be registered (but one could dispute if that should be the case).

In terms of how that person moves through their everyday life - how people refer to them, what spaces they’re allowed into - what do you think should happen?

Let's first of all pick apart the two different concepts you are throwing together here.

Non-binary people are typically (but not always) people who have been born either unambiguously male or female, but who feel they do not fit society's ideas of women and men, or they believe they fit both equally.

A few of those who identify as non-binary may naturally look androgynous or seek cosmetic surgeries to match their ideal body, but will typically (but not always) still be obviously male or female.

However, you mention medical history in this context, which suggests that you are conflating those born unambiguously male or female who later identify as non-binary with the exceptionally rare individuals who are born with ambiguous genitalia.

These individuals belong to a group of patients variously called intersex people or people with Differences in Sex Development (DSDs). Both are umbrella terms for about 40 different conditions that always affect either male or female people.

They are not actually intersex in the sense of being hermaphrodites, that is functionally both male and female. Such creatures do exist in the animal world, but the human animal is not one of them.

Now to your question. You say "I can't tell". That is a matter of perception. And perception is of course subjective. We cannot base legislation and policies on people's perceptions because that differs from person to person. Some people are not at all perceptive, others exceptionally so. Have you heard of hypervigilance, for instance?

It's a survival instinct developed by survivors of violence which helps them identify potential predators. The most common form is that developed by female victims of male violence, who will recognise males as male even when others do not.

So, while you may not be able to tell what sex those individuals are, women who are hypervigilant most certainly will be.

Additionally, there's also empirical evidence from qualitative and quantitative studies showing that female people are better at recognising female faces than male people. So, we have evidence that there are both individual differences in perception based on personal history and general differences in perception based on our sex.

Moreover, pattern recognition is one of the first skills children learn. It's not just another survival skill, but a vital ability we need to successfully navigate our world. Children aged four can reliably tell male and female adults apart, and as you can see from what I said about hypervigilance, this isn't a skill we lose as we age but one that we depend on throughout life.

A good example to look at is age. Remember those signs everywhere you can buy alcohol? If you look under 25 we will ask for ID before you can buy alcohol.

But surely, once you are 18, you can legally buy alcohol. Why card anyone who looks under 25? Because perception does not always match material facts.

You may look 22, especially when dressed and styled accordingly, but only be 17. You may look 15 but actually be 19.

Normally that doesn't matter. But if you want to draw on the legal right to buy alcohol, perception means nothing. Only your actual age counts.

OP posts:
MaudTheInvincible · 14/02/2021 12:59

I belong not to a group identity. I belong in a sex class and a race class.

Does that make sense?

It makes sense to me; I feel the same.

CranberriesChoccyAgain · 14/02/2021 12:59

Where possible (as in some places I’ve worked) every toilet should be wholly separate with its own basin and mirror

That'd be ideal, of course. But it's not feasible to implement where the current facilities are sex segregated. It takes time to change things, build structures. Until then, we have to hope that people use the toilet that causes the least distress for the majority of other users. An obvious male TW in a women's toilet is a problem. They might also feel unsafe in the men's but that isn't a problem for women to solve. A lot of the claims that TW have been using women's toilets for years already is something I would take with a grain of salt. Either those TW pass well or the women present felt too intimidated to object. Men know this is how female socialization works.

Landlockedgirl · 14/02/2021 12:56

*Helen8220
My comment was in reply to your question about how to “refer” to others. I tend to refer to people I’ve met by their name. Works for me.

JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown · 14/02/2021 12:55

Helen8220, I've got a genuine question about gender identity.
What is the difference then between gender identity and gender stereotypes?
Can you give one characteristic of having a female gender identity that isn't a stereotype?
I always ask this question and I never get an answer.
You said you identify as a woman and that means you present yourself in a way that means people identify you as a woman and your examples are how you dress and long hair.
Surely you can understand why so many women have a problem with that? I recently cut my hair short. It doesn't make me less of a woman.
It feels like trans activism is mixing up their own definitions of gender identity, gender expression and biological sex and stereotypes, and then shouting 'no debate, bigot' at anyone who says 'hey, that's a bit sexist. We need to talk about this'.

gardenbird48 · 14/02/2021 12:55

Great idea for a thread. Would it also be helpful to new posters to clarify certain arguments that are regularly presented as a ‘gotcha’ or justification for certain views?

I was reminded this morning by a post on the NHS erasing women thread making a common point used by the trans activists (also sometimes referred to as TRAs) is that transwomen (born male otherwise they couldn’t be trans) are a ‘type’ of woman in the same way that black woman, disabled woman, short woman etc are all types of women.

I’m not the best at explaining but to suggest that male people who claim a female identity are as much a woman as a black woman is unbelievably racist. A black woman is a woman without any further qualification needed.

To suggest that someone not born female, not socialised as female, having experienced zero effect of having female biology on their lives - having to guard carefully against unwanted pregnancy, being most likely to experience sexual assault, fgm, being paid less due to sex inequality at work, dealing with agonising periods etc etc. can have an equal claim that they are a woman is just beyond wrong.

WarOnWomen · 14/02/2021 12:52

@littlbrowndog

I think not having an identity is very freeing

I just am what I am

A woman

Wear what I want cut my hair how I want all that stuff

I just don’t believe in the identity stuff as if I did then how would it manifest itself ?

I think that's interesting because I don't think of myself as having an identity either. I just am.

I belong not to a group identity. I belong in a sex class and a race class.

Does that make sense?

Helen8220 · 14/02/2021 12:48

Thank you @WarOnWomen

Lordamighty · 14/02/2021 12:48

Helen8220 do you think a trans woman, who was born male & went through male puberty, should be allowed to compete in the women’s events in sport? Don’t you think that it puts the female athletes at a disadvantage that can’t be overcome by training?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 14/02/2021 12:47

I thought this was a supportive thread for posters new to feminism chat? This kind of comment is unhelpful

I agree.

Datun · 14/02/2021 12:44

@Helen8220

“ Datun

It’s not a hypothetical question - it’s a real question about real people and where they fit in the world

The question gets asked, regularly. The answer is, you go to the facility of your sex. Or you campaign for a third space.

The point is, it's not relevant to sex segregation. We don't decide to not have sex segregation, because of the small number of people who won't abide by it.”

Do you think that a trans man, who appears to all the world to be a cis man, should use the women’s toilets? Isn’t that likely to bring them quite a lot of adverse attention?

Its got nothing to do with women's rights, or maintaining sex segregation. So I don't know why you keep asking.
WarOnWomen · 14/02/2021 12:44

Do you have a visual impairment?

I thought this was a supportive thread for posters new to feminism chat? This kind of comment is unhelpful.

littlbrowndog · 14/02/2021 12:43

I think not having an identity is very freeing

I just am what I am

A woman

Wear what I want cut my hair how I want all that stuff

I just don’t believe in the identity stuff as if I did then how would it manifest itself ?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 14/02/2021 12:42

Regardless of the fact that my parents are pretty anti gender norms, and encouraged both me and my brother to wear/play with what we wanted regardless of whether they were typically for girls or boys, the influence of the media, other children, school etc inevitably played a big role in forming my sense of myself as a female. And I’m not trans, so I have accepted and incorporated all of that into my identity - I identify as a woman, and that means that I present myself in a way that causes others to automatically recognise me as a woman - I wear women’s clothes, I have long hair, i walk and talk in a certain way

I find this so interesting. I tend to agree with you - but at the same time, I see what happened to me as violent gendering - as being forced to act in a particular way that does not reflect how I would like to act.

As an example - I was told to sit with my knees together from a very young age, whereas male friends could sit how they wanted. I learned to do this, and do it in public, but resent it, and in private, I womanspread as much as I fucking please. I don't in public because it would contravene gender norms and I'd be censured and/or invite unwanted sexual attention.

I have no problems identifying as female because that's what I am. I am female and a woman, an adult human female - but that's different from my gender identity, which is (mostly) feminine and that is a patriarchal social construct that was imposed on me from without and which I (try to) reject.

That is why I am gender critical, whilst recognising the materiality and reality of biological sex. I also resented having periods and a female reproductive system, but that was reality, not anything I could do anything about, unlike gender, which, being social, can be changed and which both does (because it was imposed from without) and does not (because my preferred behaviours would be different) define who I am.

Helen8220 · 14/02/2021 12:42

“ Datun

It’s not a hypothetical question - it’s a real question about real people and where they fit in the world

The question gets asked, regularly. The answer is, you go to the facility of your sex. Or you campaign for a third space.

The point is, it's not relevant to sex segregation. We don't decide to not have sex segregation, because of the small number of people who won't abide by it.”

Personally I don’t think toilets should be segregated by sex. Where possible (as in some places I’ve worked) every toilet should be wholly separate with its own basin and mirror

Helen8220 · 14/02/2021 12:40

“ Landlockedgirl

New here but oldish. In the 80s we just called people by the name they introduced themselves as. This applied to gay, straight, transsexual or androgynous people (the terms we tended to use back then). It all seemed so much easier.”

I don’t think that’s changed?