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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Q&A thread for New Posters

613 replies

CharlieParley · 14/02/2021 10:41

Welcome to the FWR board and welcome to the debate. If you're new here and have been told your questions might be better on their own thread, but you're not comfortable starting your own, then please feel free to ask your question here.

I'll try my best to answer and some of our other regulars might pop in too.

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9
CranberriesChoccyAgain · 14/02/2021 18:23

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

Why is cis a banned term? Why do people get so cross when it is used on here?
Because it makes women feel like a subset of their own sex class.
MaudTheInvincible · 14/02/2021 18:22

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

I have heard GC women say that men might pretend to be trans to attack women and that's why transwomen should not be allowed to share with women. I have seen many rebuttals saying that men would not go to that much trouble to gain access to victims nor would they do it in a way that would make them so disadvantaged in society.

Now I know that's not strictly true because of high profile cases of violent and/or abusive people who claimed to be trans and used this to gain access to victims. I'm thinking of Karen White, Jessica Yaniv and Barbie Kardashian. They all claim to be transwomen. I'm told it is unfair to pick on these very rare cases as an indication that violent men will claim to be trans. You can find violent people in any group.

Is it rare? Does it matter? Is it genuinely a problem? Or just a disguise for bigotry? Is there any evidence one way or the other?

Well ~98% of sexual offences are committed by males.

There's zero evidence at the moment that any type of transition (social, medical, top surgery or bottom surgery) has any effect on this.

MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 14/02/2021 18:19

Why is cis a banned term? Why do people get so cross when it is used on here?

SophocIestheFox · 14/02/2021 18:13

I finally understand what sea-lioning is from this definition. The cartoon, which I've seen before as an explanation, doesn't make sense to me at all, and seems to be about something completely different

My thoughts exactly. I also think the cartoon is a bit silly, but the behaviour it describes when enacted by actual humans rather than anthropomorphised pinnipeds* with a grudge is a very real thing. I couldn’t give a hoot that the cartoon isn’t that helpful, because the phrase itself is useful to me.

thank you arabella* for my word of the weekend. I hope I’ve spelled it correctly Grin

MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 14/02/2021 18:12

I have heard GC women say that men might pretend to be trans to attack women and that's why transwomen should not be allowed to share with women. I have seen many rebuttals saying that men would not go to that much trouble to gain access to victims nor would they do it in a way that would make them so disadvantaged in society.

Now I know that's not strictly true because of high profile cases of violent and/or abusive people who claimed to be trans and used this to gain access to victims. I'm thinking of Karen White, Jessica Yaniv and Barbie Kardashian. They all claim to be transwomen. I'm told it is unfair to pick on these very rare cases as an indication that violent men will claim to be trans. You can find violent people in any group.

Is it rare? Does it matter? Is it genuinely a problem? Or just a disguise for bigotry? Is there any evidence one way or the other?

MaudTheInvincible · 14/02/2021 18:12

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

I often see talk of "lifesaving trans healthcare" being banned or restricted.

What is the healthcare? How does it save lives?

Why would healthcare be refused to people presenting to the doctor saying they feel they are trans? What treatments are offered? What is the person's problem with being trans that requires medical intervention?

The first medical step for children in the UK is puberty blockers, then cross-sex hormones and some choose to have surgery too.

Since the Judicial Review brought by Keira Bell, GIDS now require a clinician to apply to the Court of Protection for permission to give the puberty blockers because they're considered an experimental drug in the context of gender dysphoria. The ruling of the review is being appealed.

Adults can do what they like.

CranberriesChoccyAgain · 14/02/2021 18:10

^^ Regarding the toilet issue, I've said recently that the TRA response when we say we don't want men (however they identify) in our spaces is to say that if men want to attack us they'll just come in anyway. So if TW are afraid of being attacked by other males (this seems to be their reason for wanting to use ladies toilets), why do they feel safer if, by their own reasoning, men can just come in anyway?

gardenbird48 · 14/02/2021 18:03

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

When I first became aware of these issues I frequently saw claims that transwomen suffer serious violence in the UK. I still keep seeing it claimed that transpeople, especially transwomen, are the most marginalised and oppressed group, even more than women, black people, people with disabilities and homosexual people.

Is this true?

I have been looking for evidence that transwomen are at any more risk of violence in the men’s facilities than any other vulnerable male group like teen boys of small slight men and so far have found nothing.

I have requested this info from our resident trans posters arguing that they must use the women’s facilities because they are in such terrible danger in the men’s but still had nothing.

One respondent posted a self selected survey from about 6 yrs ago in America (a noteably different society to ours) that claimed greater danger but it wasn’t contextualised with violence suffered by any other group.

There have been zero trans people murdered in the uk since 2018 and on internet searches, despite the fact that the media (and Stonewall, Pink News etc) report any trans victim as being trans (but if they are a perpetrator they are reported as they choose, usually as a woman) I’m struggling find any reports of violence against trans people that fits the argument that they are safer in the women’s toilets.

In fact, the only ‘attack’ on a transwoman I could find was in Canada where a person was ’karate chopped’ by two girls in the ladies toilets after they challenged a male bodied person’s presence in the women’s facilities. I don’t think much actual injury took place.

It was mentioned by a man in social media that men are quite used to seeing bolder women pop into the men’s toilets because they don’t want to wait for the ladies so it sounds like not much attention would generally be paid to a female presenting person using the men’s toilets.

If anyone has found any actual reports of transwomen being attacked in the men’s facilities I would be interested to see. In the other hand I have seen some pretty awful reports of male people accessing women’s facilities to attack women and young girls.

OldCrone · 14/02/2021 18:03

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

I often see talk of "lifesaving trans healthcare" being banned or restricted.

What is the healthcare? How does it save lives?

Why would healthcare be refused to people presenting to the doctor saying they feel they are trans? What treatments are offered? What is the person's problem with being trans that requires medical intervention?

You probably won't get an answer to these questions here. These are questions to ask of TRAs who are the ones saying these things.

Like you, I don't understand how this treatment saves lives. I also don't understand why a condition which we are told is neither a mental health condition nor a physical health condition needs treatment in the first place.

CranberriesChoccyAgain · 14/02/2021 18:03

I hadn't heard of sealioning until today. I guess it's a diversion tactic, not unlike whataboutery.

Mrsmorton · 14/02/2021 18:00

@12frogsincoats for someone who thinks feminists are the hitler youth, you sure do spend a lot of time hanging out with us. Maybe you need a new hobby?

ArabellaScott · 14/02/2021 17:55

MildlyIrritated based on the ONS figures, trans people are actually safer (from murder) than the rest of the population.

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

'The limited data we’re working with suggests that in the UK at least, the “trans murder rate” is lower than the UK average.

But – again based on unofficial figures – it appears that trans people are more likely to experience other violent crimes, for example domestic abuse.

All of this is a best guess, not a firm conclusion: we don’t yet have a robust estimate of the total trans population of the UK, and the number of recorded trans murder victims is so small that it would only take one or two more cases every year for the “trans murder rate” to double or triple.

The Office for National Statistics say they are working on creating a standard process for recording violence against trans people.'

Transphobia undoubtedly does exist - usually rooted in homophobia, I would suggest, and there are horrible people out there who just don't like people who are outwith the norm.

The trouble is that the definition of 'transphobia has been used to accuse people for - well, everything:

wingsoverscotland.com/everything-is-transphobic/

And the hate crime laws, including hate 'incidents', are so vague and problematic that I don't know how anyone can really refer to them usefully. Issues are, for example, that a hate incident can refer to absolutely anything, can be reported by absolutely anyone (not necessarily the 'victim'), are entirely a matter of perception.

Trans people share the same protections, rightly, as any other member of the population.

MaudTheInvincible · 14/02/2021 17:53

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

Are transpeople at greater risk of suicide than people who do not identify as trans? What about for teenagers?

Transgender Trend have produced this review of the available evidence: www.transgendertrend.com/the-suicide-myth/

OldCrone · 14/02/2021 17:44

@Winesalot

Sea lioning as per wiki

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

Sealioning (also spelled sea-lioning and sea lioning) is a type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with persistent requests for evidence or repeated questions, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity.[1][2][3][4] It may take the form of "incessant, bad-faith invitations to engage in debate".

I finally understand what sea-lioning is from this definition. The cartoon, which I've seen before as an explanation, doesn't make sense to me at all, and seems to be about something completely different.

Interestingly, this definition fits a certain poster on here so well it could have been written with them in mind. I no longer provide this poster with any evidence or explanations, and if I reply to them at all, just ask them questions or make a very short comment.

RagzReturnsRebooted · 14/02/2021 17:43

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

Are transpeople at greater risk of suicide than people who do not identify as trans? What about for teenagers?
I'd say teenagers probably are but because they are likely to have other mental health issues contributing to both thinking they are trans (because there's no way they all are, with how fast the rise has been in teen girls in particular) and being suicidal. That's probably not okay to say though because you aren't allowed to think it's a mental health problem... However my sister has had several mental health illness diagnosed before deciding that being trans is her real issue and it will all be fixed once she's a man. So I'm very biased.
MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 14/02/2021 17:40

I often see talk of "lifesaving trans healthcare" being banned or restricted.

What is the healthcare? How does it save lives?

Why would healthcare be refused to people presenting to the doctor saying they feel they are trans? What treatments are offered? What is the person's problem with being trans that requires medical intervention?

MaudTheInvincible · 14/02/2021 17:38

despite one being my own example

Are you suggesting that liberal feminists and radical feminists are the same, or what?

MrsWooster · 14/02/2021 17:38

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

Trans rights is talked about as if it is one thing. Are there any significant differences between MTF and FTM trans people? Do they have the same needs for new or changed rights?
My instinct would be that FtM are trying to identify OUT of an oppressed group whereas MtF are attempting to identify into one. All oppressed groups have legal and hard-won legal protections and can’t be identified in OR out of... and you can’t change sex, so: •everyone has human rights. •FtM retain women’s rights. •All people with GRC have specific rights associated with gender reassignment which do not necessarily supersede sex based rights
RagzReturnsRebooted · 14/02/2021 17:37

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

I see claims that straight women's willingness to have lesbians share spaces with them shows that objection to transwomen being present is bigotry not real fear. Apparently it shows that the problem is not over fear of sexually predatory behaviour because of course lesbians would present the same danger to women. What do you think of that argument?
I would say women aren't as prone to sexually predatory behaviour as biological males (being lesbian has nothing to do with it). Plus they don't have penises with which to rape people. I'm sure most trans people have no desire to rape anyone, but if you allow anyone to identify as a woman and then allow them into women's spaces then what is there to stop men doing so purely to prey on women? Even if they aren't, women may feel safer in a space without male bodies in it and that should be our right.
Blibbyblobby · 14/02/2021 17:35

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

I see claims that straight women's willingness to have lesbians share spaces with them shows that objection to transwomen being present is bigotry not real fear. Apparently it shows that the problem is not over fear of sexually predatory behaviour because of course lesbians would present the same danger to women. What do you think of that argument?
As a female, I've been subject to unwanted lesbian attention in my life exactly once and that was nothing more than pressing up a bit close after a few drinks.

I've been subject to unwanted male attention more times than I can remember, from being stared at to having a stranger butt into conversations to being grabbed for a snog against my will to being groped to being followed and shouted at to being flashed and masturbated at. Thankfully never raped.

Now, maybe I'm just really unattractive to lesbians, but I think the difference is because males are socialised to think it's ok, reasonable and even unavoidable for them to impose their interest on females.

The issue isn't whether a person in our space might be sexually interested in us, it's whether they feel entitled to ignore our boundaries and act on that interest.

It's a very male thing to assume a lesbian is going to act like a man just because they both fancy women.

guinnessguzzler · 14/02/2021 17:33

@littlbrowndog

The students so determined not to say no you are not a 7 year old child

A full grown man standing in front of them 🤦‍♀️

It really is quite incredible. You can see from their faces and body language, as well as the changes in their actual language (eg 'I feel there are cultures that would accept you' rather than 'Good for you') that they don't really believe it but they know that if they admit to that they will struggle to justify their first answer. The question is, why would they rather go along with something so clearly false rather than question their first response? Yet another thing I don't believe I will ever understand!
RagzReturnsRebooted · 14/02/2021 17:33

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

I have seen claims that transwomen are no greater risk to natal women than natal women are to each other, including in prisons. Is this true?
I have seen data that suggests trans women maintain a more male pattern of violent criminal behaviour, especially towards women, so I'd guess not true. Even if it is reasonably rare and a minority of overall trans people.
MaudTheInvincible · 14/02/2021 17:32

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

I see claims that straight women's willingness to have lesbians share spaces with them shows that objection to transwomen being present is bigotry not real fear. Apparently it shows that the problem is not over fear of sexually predatory behaviour because of course lesbians would present the same danger to women. What do you think of that argument?

Well ~98% of sexual offences are committed by males.

MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 14/02/2021 17:32

Are transpeople at greater risk of suicide than people who do not identify as trans? What about for teenagers?

MaudTheInvincible · 14/02/2021 17:29

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

I have seen claims that transwomen are no greater risk to natal women than natal women are to each other, including in prisons. Is this true?

No. There's no evidence for this. Denmark have recently decided to reinstate women-only prisons because of the detrimental affect on the female prisoners

Q&A thread for New Posters