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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Q&A thread for New Posters

613 replies

CharlieParley · 14/02/2021 10:41

Welcome to the FWR board and welcome to the debate. If you're new here and have been told your questions might be better on their own thread, but you're not comfortable starting your own, then please feel free to ask your question here.

I'll try my best to answer and some of our other regulars might pop in too.

OP posts:
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Anovaneway · 15/02/2021 02:07

@Delphinium20

post operative trans women do not have the same biology as women.
Well not exactly no. Similar enough though in terms of toileting logistics.
NiceGerbil · 15/02/2021 02:02

The thing that bothers me a lot is

If self declaration is the be all and end all

And everyone accepts that.

Then if an obvious female and presents as female but IDs as male then they are put in a male prison. Use the gents. Men's communal changing. Male ward in a hosp. Not be allowed to use any services directed at women etc etc

That's right isn't it?

I mean it cuts both ways.

I don't think the prison service puts females who ID as male in men's prisons. But the sex is nothing gender is all means that is where they have to go.

Note a third space is not acceptable. People go according to their gender ID.

And if males who ID as female present no more risk to women than other women, then women who ID as men are at no additional risk in a men's prison.

I mean obviously that's a horrible idea. But that's where it logically goes. Especially given that 3rd spaces/ separate wings etc are unacceptable.

The most dangerous prisoner in the Scottish system identifies as female. They are housed in a male prison.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/scottish-news/1492364/transgender-prisoner-tiffany-scott-andrew-burns-dangerous-sheriff/amp/

I don't think there are any category a female prisons in scotland. Google not helping but I think there's 2 in England and that's it.

The other thing is that if sex is irrelevant and gender is all then non binary etc people have no sex. Where do they go?

When I read stonewall etc I understand that if I apply their definitions I am trans. Agender/ genderfree. Trans. Sex is irrelevant. So where am I supposed to go? Or be put.

OldCrone · 15/02/2021 02:01

None of this is relevant though trans women don’t have their penises removed because of cancer. Nor do they consider themselves men. On the whole.

A 'transwoman' who used to post on here said that before having genital surgery, they had to sign a document saying that they understood that the surgery wouldn't change their sex. I'm not sure how long ago this was or when things changed, but now many people do seem to think that this surgery will change their sex. And more and more people seem to think that a man just putting on a dress becomes a woman.

No matter how people consider themselves, nobody can change sex, and 'transwomen' are still male. And most 'transwomen' still have penises anyway.

OldCrone · 15/02/2021 01:49

The questions are about post operative trans women legally using women’s spaces.

'Transwomen' are male, so belong in male spaces. If there are problems with this, they are not women's problems to solve. This is a problem for males to sort out amongst themselves.

Anovaneway · 15/02/2021 01:48

None of this is relevant though trans women don’t have their penises removed because of cancer. Nor do they consider themselves men. On the whole.

Ask a transman - I understand that "SheWees" are a popular solution for the person without a penis who actually wants to use the urinal rather than a cubicle.

Which would be a rather counter intuitive thing for someone to do having gone to the trouble of sex reassignment surgery.

Delphinium20 · 15/02/2021 01:43

post operative trans women do not have the same biology as women.

MoleSmokes · 15/02/2021 01:42

@Anovaneway

our physical sex differences are very much evident in function

And for the trans woman who has no penis how do they use a urinal?

  1. Men with penile cancer who and have had the penis amputated cannot use urinals. They do not become women by virtue of amputation of the penis. They do not use The Ladies - they use a cubicle in The Gents.

I have it on good authority (a friend who had to have his penis amputated due to penile cancer) that the cubicles in The Gents are disgusting. However, it never occurred to him to avoid this unpleasantness by using The Ladies instead.

  1. Ask a transman - I understand that "SheWees" are a popular solution for the person without a penis who actually wants to use the urinal rather than a cubicle.
Anovaneway · 15/02/2021 01:41

[quote notyourhandmaid]This article on 'whataboutery' might be useful:
victimfocusblog.com/2018/01/03/stop-asking-me-what-about-men/[/quote]
No one is asking what about men.

The questions are about post operative trans women legally using women’s spaces. Because of their biology.

notyourhandmaid · 15/02/2021 01:28

This article on 'whataboutery' might be useful:
victimfocusblog.com/2018/01/03/stop-asking-me-what-about-men/

OldCrone · 15/02/2021 01:24

@Anovaneway

sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

So sex reassignment does alleviate gender dysphoria. But more mental and physical health support required.

Not surprising after what transsexuals go through. It’s a lot. More support required. Yes.

Someone mentioned male violence as a problem for male trans people earlier. One way of supporting these feminine males would be for men to stop being so violent towards other males who don't perform masculinity.

Again, a male dominated forum is probably the best place to discuss this. It's not up to women to solve problems between males.

Delphinium20 · 15/02/2021 01:20

@Anovaneway

our physical sex differences are very much evident in function

And for the trans woman who has no penis how do they use a urinal?

No idea. But men' have both urinals and toilets so I assume they choose what works. If neither work, using a women's won't help.
OldCrone · 15/02/2021 01:15

@Anovaneway

our physical sex differences are very much evident in function

And for the trans woman who has no penis how do they use a urinal?

What has that got to do with women and women's rights?

Perhaps take that question to a male-dominated forum and see what solutions men can find for males who don't have penises.

Anovaneway · 15/02/2021 01:14

sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

So sex reassignment does alleviate gender dysphoria. But more mental and physical health support required.

Not surprising after what transsexuals go through. It’s a lot. More support required. Yes.

Anovaneway · 15/02/2021 01:10

our physical sex differences are very much evident in function

And for the trans woman who has no penis how do they use a urinal?

Anovaneway · 15/02/2021 01:09

@NotBadConsidering

Question from observing lurkers and newcomers:

Does anyone ever answer the question of how we determine who is “real” trans and who isn’t?

All of us wearily:

No. No one ever answers that question.

A person has a one night stand (male or female). How do they ever tell who is a murderer or rapist and who isn’t?

Some people are just bad. It doesn’t mean we stop everyone from living their life.

NotBadConsidering · 15/02/2021 00:58

Here’s another good thread for newcomers and we’ve seen examples of this on this thread:

“Anyone who declares themselves as trans is trans. No debate.”

“People who declare themselves as trans but have their criminal activities documented on a website are not trans. No debate.”

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4160881-Gender-doublethink

Al77 · 15/02/2021 00:36

Another thread becomes the JJ show.

Delphinium20 · 15/02/2021 00:29

@Helen8220
Early on you asked a question, and I'm paraphrasing, where go all the people who don't fit society's rigid ideas about gender?

I think they should live like the rest of us, with respect and dignity, and without fear of discrimination. The rest of us use certain same-sex spaces primarily because select spaces are unique in that our physical sex differences are very much evident in function and vulnerability. We don't need same-sex grocery stores because our sexed bodies aren't impacted differently when shopping for food, but we need them in changing rooms and restrooms.

Women and girls are vulnerable to male-pattern violence in ways unique to our sex (physical strength differences, pregnancy, high rates of male on female violence/rape/sexual assault). I don't think anyone could disagree with the above, so my question is, why would male non-binary or trans people want to make women and girls uncomfortable and fearful by using opposite sex facilities? I know that my DH is a good man and has never and will never rape nor sexually assault a woman or a girl. But he would never use a woman's toilet because he knows his presence would make women and girls uncomfortable. I believe that good transwomen feel the same as my husband. I don't understand why some people think non-binary and trans people should act differently than the rest of us.

We simply want trans and NB to live like everyone else and use same-sex spaces that correspond to their sex.

CharlieParley · 15/02/2021 00:00

@stumbledin

"Traditionally Marxist feminism shares with radical feminism the class-based analysis of the issue of women's inequality, but disagrees about the root cause (economic class vs sex). *

Sorry this is incorrect. Early Marxist wrote about the basis of women's oppression being their sex and (some) contemporary marxists do as well eg Morning Star.

As I said above the difference is potential solutions.

Or if you are Shulamith Firestone you amalgatmate the two.

Thanks stumbledin, I stand corrected.
OP posts:
FemaleAndLearning · 14/02/2021 23:58

I'm still learning! I came to this board via a real life friend when the Gender Recognition Act consultation was going on, I'd never been on Mumsnet before this. I was very liberal and in the just be kind camp.
Things I asked her:
Transwomen are such a small percentage of the population why should I be interested?
Why can't you just live and let live?
What is a legal fiction?
What is regulatory capture?
Why is saying assigned at birth not a good thing?
Why is the T with LGB it's not a sexuality?
As well as this amazing board I really like Fair Play for Women which my friend also pointed me to. It is factual and plain speaking and appeals to the scientist in me.
Also
Transgender Trend the real site www.transgendertrend.com/
Safe School Alliance
Our Duty

It can be overwhelming and hard to ask questions and unfortunately once you go down the rabbit hole there is no coming back and no unseeing what you have seen.
I'm so pleased my friend brought me here and I'm so pleased you amazing women have been on the ball for so long. Thank you.

stumbledin · 14/02/2021 23:53

"Traditionally Marxist feminism shares with radical feminism the class-based analysis of the issue of women's inequality, but disagrees about the root cause (economic class vs sex). *

Sorry this is incorrect. Early Marxist wrote about the basis of women's oppression being their sex and (some) contemporary marxists do as well eg Morning Star.

As I said above the difference is potential solutions.

Or if you are Shulamith Firestone you amalgatmate the two.

NotBadConsidering · 14/02/2021 23:47

Question from observing lurkers and newcomers:

Does anyone ever answer the question of how we determine who is “real” trans and who isn’t?

All of us wearily:

No. No one ever answers that question.

CharlieParley · 14/02/2021 23:42

Anyway, I wondered if the term "gender critical" is something some feminists have chosen for themselves, or is it a label imposed on them? And can one be gender critical without being a feminist, or vice versa?

Good question, Callixte. The term gender critical to describe those who disagree with the doctrine of gender ideology and its associated politics gained widespread popularity in response to a slur applied mostly to women who rejected the doctrine.

There's a widespread myth the slur (the abbreviation for trans exclusive radical feminist is banned here, so I'll just say "the slur") was coined by a radical feminist, but it was actually coined by a transgender person and then picked up in feminist circles whose members accepted the doctrine and wanted to distinguish themselves from feminists who didn't.

So yes, one can be gender critical without being a feminist and a feminist without being gender critical. (The most prominent strand of feminism that accepts the doctrine of gender identity is liberal feminism.)

Almost from the beginning it was used in a derogatory way, and in usage today its regularly combined with threats of violence, so those who wanted to discuss why sex and not gender should form the basis of legislation called themselves gender critical to more accurately reflect their position. As did those who reject the doctrine of gender identity not because they are working from a radical feminist perspective but from a free speech perspective - who may or may not hold feminist views.

Also, the term "radical feminist" seems to be used interchangeably with "gender critical feminist" but much of the feminist analysis I've seen that's labelled as "gender critical" from the UK seems based in Marxist, materialist or socialist feminism rather than radical feminism. Is there a difference between radical feminst versus Marxist feminist views on "gender" and the conflict of rights?

That depends entirely on the writer. Traditionally Marxist feminism shares with radical feminism the class-based analysis of the issue of women's inequality, but disagrees about the root cause (economic class vs sex).

However, there's less daylight between those two groups today than there was in the past, because both also now consider the intersection of different axes of discrimination experienced by female people (aka intersectionality, this can include sex, class, race, religion, disability, age and sexuality).

Many people now labelled radical feminist because of their opposition to the doctrine of gender identity are neither radical nor feminists but simply women's rights proponents. Women have needs, there's a law that caters to those needs, and they wish to uphold this without necessarily engaging in theoretical feminist discourse. That's where I started from.

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Winesalot · 14/02/2021 23:35

@Okokokbear

What do gender critical people want? Or if this varies which it probably does could you say what generally as a group gc people are looking for?
The list is long but includes having those rights already stated in law to be for women and girls recognizing their needs as females including needs due to the direct impact of their biology. This may be in safeguarding, health care, employment, education and sports and to name ourselves and use our language to describe ourselves to name a few.

The impact maybe due to historical sexism that still prevails as is proven with studies where CVs with female names are less likely to be employed and would be paid less (British veterinary organization released this study last year).

The impact may be due to biological advantages. Currently males are winning sporting events and claiming women’s sporting awards.

The impact may be that women and girls are put in danger due to allowing males who identify as women into single sex spaces needed for their protection.

The impact may be losing the language we need to describe outselves. For example victims of FGM are being abused for calling it by its recognized name and appropriate name of female genital mutilation. Trans activists are sending these women who are campaigning to stop FGM abuse and telling them it is exclusive language.

stumbledin · 14/02/2021 23:34

I dont think its a surprise that those who are socialist or marxist feminists have a similar understanding of gender to a radical feminism one.

That's because both groups understand that the basis of the oppression of women is because of the sex they are born. Marxists might write about it as a sex class, and radical feminists might right about it as biological reality. But they are both saying that sex is real and it is the reactions of others ie the sex class of men to women as a sex that is the basis on which men oppress women.

That is why the TRA movement is so similar to the MRA movement. If you can argue that the category of women is not real, and can be opted in and out of, then it would be true that there is no such thing as sex discrimination, or male violence.

On other issues such as the solution to the oppression of women based on their sex, there is much more diversion between marist and radical feminists.

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