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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Q&A thread for New Posters

613 replies

CharlieParley · 14/02/2021 10:41

Welcome to the FWR board and welcome to the debate. If you're new here and have been told your questions might be better on their own thread, but you're not comfortable starting your own, then please feel free to ask your question here.

I'll try my best to answer and some of our other regulars might pop in too.

OP posts:
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CranberriesChoccyAgain · 15/02/2021 12:17

The range they must fall under is still 3 times more testosterone than a biological female athlete has. So I doubt it too.

MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 15/02/2021 12:17

You're supposed to use the prefix cis. As in cis woman.

But surely a transman is not a cis woman but is biologically a woman? So that terminology doesn't cover the group formerly known as women or females. I am trying to work out what the new word is.

MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 15/02/2021 12:14

Sports. I am told that if a male reduces his testosterone by taking medication then he is weaker than women. Apparently the Olympic committee have done loads of research and decided it is both fair and appropriate for a testosterone depleted male to compete in women's sports. Obviously they are experts in sporting performance, anti-doping, and Paralymic categories (remember the debates over Pistorius racing on blades against able bodied competitors?).

Is that all really correct?

Seems a bit unlikely to me. My uncle had treatment for prostate cancer that seriously messed with his male hormones and he was still much bigger and stronger than me afterwards. He didn't become a petite delicate flower. Mind you neither of us are Olympians! And people on Twitter might have wrongly represented what the sporting authorities actually said.

Can anyone clarify what the actual situation is?

CoffeeTeaChocolate · 15/02/2021 12:09

Mildly, this isn’t be speciality, so hopefully someone else will come along.

I believe it is as follows. Our understanding of the complexities of the human anatomy is growing. As is our understanding of brain patterns and microbiology.

In terms of microbiology, there are differences between male and females values. People argue that it is the same for certain psychological traits. Notably, as everyone is unique, there will be a range for males and a range for females. I believe that some people are very keen to argue that some categories of males are approaching the female range in some areas.

However, that does not change the fact that a male who has gone through male puberty is irrevocably male, down to every single cell (possibly with the exception of sperm cells). It does not change the fact that archaeologist can differentiate between a male and a female skeleton.

It also does not change the fact that women need certain protections based on their biology as the only sex which gets pregnant and suffer from maternity related complications (need of adjusted work hours during pregnancy, protection against getting fired etc).

When it comes to the single sex spaces this does not have an impact either. A Muslim woman will not be able to remove her hijab if she is in a space where there are trans women. As for the pure safety aspect, many trans woman are lovely and need protection themselves. However, it is impossible to determine which trans women are lovely and which are predators. There is a conflict. This conflict needs to be discussed. And the easiest way to protect vulnerable women and children is to exclude all males.

I think many women here would be much more emphatic and keen to discuss solutions if SelfID wasn’t pushed so hard as was the concept that questioning anyone’s gender identity was actual violence. SelfID and no debate means that all males are allowed in every, disregarding legal protections, minorities and safety.

Datun · 15/02/2021 12:05

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

Which brings me onto another question. If sex and gender are different and trans is about gender then why use the same words as used for sex? It just makes things confusing.

What's wrong with using the words transwoman and transman while keeping woman and man for the biological class?

What is the word we are supposed to use for the biological classes women and men now? I thought it might be female and male but I have seen transwomen describe themselves as female recently.

You're supposed to use the prefix cis. As in cis woman.

It makes you a subset of your own sex, but as long as you can be described in relation to what a man does, then it's all fine. A cis woman is 'not a transwoman'. A transwoman is a man who identifies as a woman. Therefore a cis woman is 'not a man who identifies as a woman'.

The other explanation for cis is that you align with your gender. And since gender is a set of restrictive and oppressive sterility types, it means you align with those.

So you're either being described in relation to a man, or being described in relation to colluding in your own oppression.

It's a win, win. But not for women, obvs.

MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 15/02/2021 12:04

Garbled language there. I hope it still makes sense.

MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 15/02/2021 12:02

I get shown pictures of butch looking transmen posing with tops off by people saying do you really want to force these people to use the ladies changing and toilets? Surely that will alarm women. Then they say that butch looking women get abused by women in ladies facilities a lot now because GC feminists have created a hostile environment for trans people and so women challenge women who they think might be men.

Personally I don't see why a personal who 100% passed as the opposite sex wouldn't keep using opposite sex facilities because nobody would know. Anyone transman who doesn't pass as the opposite could still use the ladies just fine because we'd notice it's a female presenting as a man.

It feels like a non-issue to me. Am I missing something?

ArabellaScott · 15/02/2021 12:01

Yes, indeed, Mildly. Some might even think that confusion and obfuscation are seen as a plus of the mix-up between sex and gender. A feature, not a bug, as the saying goes.

CranberriesChoccyAgain · 15/02/2021 12:00

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Has there been any trouble? If so, what did the authorities do? How were women protected and/or compensated if there was trauma?

There has been trouble, yes. Karen White, a male later convicted of rape, sexually assaulted two women in women's prison. There is currently an unnamed female prisoner bringing a Judicial Review against MoJ for their policy of putting some males in women's prisons. That court case was adjourned due to further evidence being required. It is due to continue this spring.

I know the question was about UK prisons but I found this story about an assault by a TW in a Canadian prison.

www.womenarehuman.com/transgender-inmate-charged-with-sexual-assault-at-a-womens-prison/

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/02/2021 11:56

What is the word we are supposed to use for the biological classes women and men now?

We're not. They aren't a meaningful category according to many trans activists.

MaudTheInvincible · 15/02/2021 11:56

@Anovaneway

Do you think they've found out about the pillow fights we regularly host in our best lingerie?

Perhaps you could keep the snide comments to the Bunbury thread?

Don't you dare use humour, women!

CranberriesChoccyAgain · 15/02/2021 11:56

@Anovaneway

Do you think they've found out about the pillow fights we regularly host in our best lingerie?

Perhaps you could keep the snide comments to the Bunbury thread?

Perhaps I could. But I probably won't. That's just how I am.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/02/2021 11:55

Can anyone explain why I keep seeing biological sex is not binary in debates about trans issues?

Because it's a useful gotcha argument for trans activists. There's no such thing as biological sex because some medical disorders exist which disprove the sex binary, therefore men can have a "woman's brain".

MaudTheInvincible · 15/02/2021 11:55

Saw this on FB yesterday

Public toilet, London, circa 1900.

February 11 is an important, if not very well known day in the history of women’s emancipation. For it was on this date in 1852 that the first public flushing toilet available to women was opened in Britain in 1852. The location was 51 Bedford Street, the Strand, London.

A year earlier, at the Great Exhibition at Crystal Palace in London, the public flush toilet was first introduced. George Jennings, a Brighton plumber, installed water closets in the Retiring Rooms of The Crystal Palace. These caused great excitement and during the exhibition over 800,000 visitors paid one penny each to use them, thus introducing the phrase “to spend a penny”. For their penny, each visitor had access to a clean seat, a towel, a comb and even a shoe shine.

After the success of the lavatories at Crystal Palace, public toilets started to appear in the streets of London. The first one, for men, located at 95 Fleet Street, London, opened on February 2, 1852, with one for women opening a few days later, on February 11, at 51 Bedford Street, Strand, London. These “Public Waiting Rooms” contained water closets in wooden surrounds.

It took some years for the toilets to become universally popular. Thomas Crapper developed improvements to Jennings’ initial flushing mechanism, making it more functional and reliable. He also invented the ballcock mechanism.

Because the majority of public toilets in Britain and the United States were built for men, the Ladies Sanitary Association, formed in the 1850s, shortly after the creation of the first public flushing toilet, campaigned for clean and sanitary public and workplace toilets and changing rooms for women.

Until public lavatories for women were widespread, women who needed to travel from their homes had to plan their route to include places where they could relieve themselves. Women were unable to travel beyond where family and friends resided. This is often referred to as the “urinary leash”, as women could only travel far as their bladders would allow them.

We, of course, take women’s rest rooms for granted (except when we can't find one), but their development and implementation was an essential step in women’s equality and freedom.

Historical Photos of Women's Stories

https://www.facebook.com/111517533725893/posts/283743139836664/

It seems some people want to reinstate the urinary leash and stop women being able to access public facilities by making them mixed sex, so stopping any woman who can't use them due to religious or cultural reasons, due to trauma, or simply due to not wanting to have to share with men.

These women must have their lives and their ability to participate in society curtailed so that men can have all the choice.

No. I do not consent.

Q&A thread for New Posters
MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 15/02/2021 11:54

Which brings me onto another question. If sex and gender are different and trans is about gender then why use the same words as used for sex? It just makes things confusing.

What's wrong with using the words transwoman and transman while keeping woman and man for the biological class?

What is the word we are supposed to use for the biological classes women and men now? I thought it might be female and male but I have seen transwomen describe themselves as female recently.

CoffeeTeaChocolate · 15/02/2021 11:52

I am really upset now. You have been holding secret, lingerie pillow fights and I have never once been invited 😭 ? not that any sane person would want to see me in lingerie, but that is beside the point

MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 15/02/2021 11:48

I am confused about what is believed about sex and gender.

I see people saying gender is a social construct whereas sex is biology.

The words woman and man used to refer to sex but now they mean gender so a female can be a man if she identifies as a transman.

I don't like redefining commonly understood words (e.g. literally) so that sits wrong with me but if it is something everyone agrees with then I suppose I would have to get used to it.

However, I am not sure everyone who describes themselves as a trans ally does have the same idea. This confuses me. For example, people talking about intersex people aka people with disorders of sexual development tell me that sex is complicated, there is no binary male and female apparently. That is out dated biological understanding. The science says a sex binary does not actually exist. This means trans people can be the opposite sex. That doesn't seem right does it? Eggs and sperm are still real aren't they? There isn't some other sex is there? Aren't intersex people one sex or the other but with something that has gone wrong in development? Anyway of sex and gender are different then what have congenital medical conditions of sex organs got to do with trans people? I thought they were concerned with gender? If transpeople all have intersex conditions won't that make it super easy to identify who is really trans? I don't think trans people have DSDs though, do they?

So, I really don't get what DSDs and trans have to do with each other.

I find it hard to believe scientists have said male and female biological sex classes are old hat. I grew up on a farm, the different between a ewe and a ram was obvious and there was no spectrum of sexes!

Can anyone explain why I keep seeing biological sex is not binary in debates about trans issues?

Anovaneway · 15/02/2021 11:36

Do you think they've found out about the pillow fights we regularly host in our best lingerie?

Perhaps you could keep the snide comments to the Bunbury thread?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/02/2021 11:32

Has there been any trouble? If so, what did the authorities do? How were women protected and/or compensated if there was trauma?

There has been trouble, yes. Karen White, a male later convicted of rape, sexually assaulted two women in women's prison. There is currently an unnamed female prisoner bringing a Judicial Review against MoJ for their policy of putting some males in women's prisons. That court case was adjourned due to further evidence being required. It is due to continue this spring.

MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 15/02/2021 11:28

I am told that transwomen are being held in women's prisons in the UK. Were the women in the prison consulted before a male-bodied person was brought in? Is there somewhere where we can see the results of any surveys pre and post arrival of the transwoman in the women's prison? How is it going? Has there been any trouble? If so, what did the authorities do? How were women protected and/or compensated if there was trauma?

CharlieParley · 15/02/2021 11:24

@Anovaneway

The fact that people come and post such, frankly cruel, shit. And think they're making a great point. I mean Jesus it's outragous.

I didn’t blame anyone for anything. Except the criminals. The fact that some men are criminals doesn’t mean I think it’s ok to stop post operative trans women from using women’s toilets.

But go ahead and report my post and your little mole will no doubt have a look behind the scenes and let you know outside mumsnet whether I have other name changes. I can see how this works. Interesting.

That's how safeguarding works. At all levels in all areas. We identify a risk coming from individuals to a whole group. We identify ways to mitigate the risk.

But of course, when it's about female-only provisions, risk avoidance isn't the only reason for their existence. Privacy and dignity, fairness, equity, remedy for inequalities suffered on the basis of sex. These are all reasons why these provisions exist and while it is fair and justified and right to keep them.

We're not living in a gender-free utopia, we're female people living in a male-dominated world. Those provisions are vital for us, because we are the oppressed class in this world.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/02/2021 11:23

Do you think they've found out about the pillow fights we regularly host in our best lingerie?

Oh definitely.

Datun · 15/02/2021 11:19

@Anovaneway

The fact that people come and post such, frankly cruel, shit. And think they're making a great point. I mean Jesus it's outragous.

I didn’t blame anyone for anything. Except the criminals. The fact that some men are criminals doesn’t mean I think it’s ok to stop post operative trans women from using women’s toilets.

But go ahead and report my post and your little mole will no doubt have a look behind the scenes and let you know outside mumsnet whether I have other name changes. I can see how this works. Interesting.

Can I ask if there is any part of you that is thinking about the women? Even slightly? Are you taking the women into account at all?

Do you think women who do not want to share a space with men, are triggered on the basis of whether or not that person has something they can't see under their clothing?

Or do you think they are triggered by their sex?

Anovaneway · 15/02/2021 11:12

Serial name changers and PBPs are often quite easy to spot, it’s like vegans, they’ll always let you know somehow

Yes on this particular forum. When it’s 1 voice in 100. That’s not what I’m talking about.