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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Q&A thread for New Posters

613 replies

CharlieParley · 14/02/2021 10:41

Welcome to the FWR board and welcome to the debate. If you're new here and have been told your questions might be better on their own thread, but you're not comfortable starting your own, then please feel free to ask your question here.

I'll try my best to answer and some of our other regulars might pop in too.

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9
ErrolTheDragon · 15/02/2021 20:35

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

Do gender critical transpeople exist and post here?
Yes, there are quite a few who might be so described, and some have posted here. But by and large they seem to be respectful of this being a feminism board. I linked to the petitions board upthread, there's a thread on there about 'third spaces' from some of them.
OldCrone · 15/02/2021 20:22

@StellaAndCrow

Random question. When did hair length start being used as a gender marker? When I was at school (70/80s) half the girls in my class had short hair, half long. It seems different now, girls with short hair get asked if they are non-binary.
I'd like an answer to this one as well. It really baffles me for the same reason. Lots of older women have short hair even now. Why is short hair a gender marker on a girl or young woman, but not on a woman of 60? Is it just because older women are invisible anyway?

But I don't see long hair on men as a gender marker either. Lots of men in the 70s and 80s had long hair. When did long hair on men become a sign of anything other than that they like having long hair?

persistentwoman · 15/02/2021 20:18

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

Why do I see many more lesbians being gender critical than gay men?
Interestingly I have seen an increasing number of gay men start to speak out about what is happening to women. My male gay friends are all on board - we've been discussing this for years so they were alerted to all the threats (by me) from an early stage and recognise them when they see them. Sadly there's a group of very powerful gay males in politics (those in receipt of all the awards and hospitality from lobby groups) who enable a lot of this at a political level.
MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 15/02/2021 20:18

Do gender critical transpeople exist and post here?

MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 15/02/2021 20:16

Recipes. Why so many on this board? There's a weird thing about Weetabix too. What's the story?

MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 15/02/2021 20:14

What's with the boycotts? Why do MN FWR users take against some brands? Why do people post about "potato" on boycott threads?

MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 15/02/2021 20:13

Is JK Rowling transphobic?

Datun · 15/02/2021 20:11

@StellaAndCrow

Random question. When did hair length start being used as a gender marker? When I was at school (70/80s) half the girls in my class had short hair, half long. It seems different now, girls with short hair get asked if they are non-binary.
Same here. Short hair on girls was completely normal.

Maybe when consumerism took off massively? And retailers realised they could sell parents two of everything, instead of one. One pink, one blue. And 'gender' became marketable.

MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 15/02/2021 19:50

Do all trans people believe they are actually the opposite sex after hormones and surgery and thus should be treated exactly the same as people of the opposite sex?

I seem to recall it used to be one of the criteria for medical changes that the person understood they can't actually change sex. Presumably that has changed?

TinyCake · 15/02/2021 19:30

Thanks for answering these questions, I feel I understand the debates a lot better now

RagzReturnsRebooted · 15/02/2021 19:12

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

Why do I see many more lesbians being gender critical than gay men?
Because there are a lot more trans women trying to persuade lesbians that they should sleep with them and their 'lady penises' than there are trans men trying to get gay men to sleep with them and their 'man vaginas'. Because, yet again, it's more men hounding women.
Datun · 15/02/2021 19:10

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

I keep seeing the Twitter people saying that radical feminists and gender critical women are bio essentialists who want men and women to be 1950s stereotypes based on their birth sex, whereas trans allies want people to break out of those stereotypes. Is this a correct characterisation of gender critical views?
When you realise that trans allies are not helping people break out of gender boxes it's a penny dropping moment.

They are cementing them. If a man feels a certain way, he must be a woman. Which means that women, all of them, feel a certain way, or dress a certain way or behave a certain way or think in a certain way.

It's cementing gender stereotypes.

You think like that?? You must be a woman!

And when you realise that gender stereotypes are designed to keep women as lesser than, suppprt humans, the misogyny leaps off the page.

Datun · 15/02/2021 19:04

@TinyCake

Hi me again sorry. The gender/sex thing has sent me off one load of what ifs. So you can't actually change sex just gender but statistics confuse the two so why don't they just ask gender if that is what they want to know. Also if anyone has any good links on the whole gender vs sex thing I'd like to do some more reading.
That's the bait and switch, or smoke and mirrors. It's all about gender identity, but then all the rights that must be ceded are sex based.
OldCrone · 15/02/2021 19:00

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

Is it true that some toddlers and preschoolers are identified by their parents as trans?

I thought you had to be an adult or at least have reached puberty to be trans.

How would you know your kid is trans?

In my experience little kids barely know what men and women are. Mine went through a phase of thinking anyone with long hair must be a woman, even Bill Bailey with his little pony tail!!!

Thinking of a comparison with gayness, surely people do not usually accept for certain that they are homosexual until they are well through puberty. How come people think trans becomes clearer sooner?

Good questions, but again, ones that we can't answer here, because in order to answer these questions you have to believe that children can be transgender.

Some people, including psychologist Diane Ehrensaft, think that children can be trans, including even babies who can't yet speak!

“I have a colleague who is transgender.” Ehrensaft tells her audience at an education event in Santa Cruz. “There is a video of him as a toddler- he was assigned female at birth- tearing barrettes out of then-her hair. And throwing them on the ground. And sobbing. That’s a gender message… they can show you what they want to play with… this child wore the little onesies with snap-ups between the legs and at age one this child would unsnap them to make a dress and have the dress flow… this was a child who was assigned male… that’s a pre-verbal communication.”

twitter.com/LilyLilyMaynard/status/1312474230299086848

More about Ehrensaft here:
4thwavenow.com/2016/09/29/gender-affirmative-therapist-baby-who-hates-barrettes-trans-boy-questioning-sterilization-of-11-year-olds-same-as-denying-cancer-treatment/

And more about so-called trans kids here:
lilymaynard.com/born-in-the-wrong-body-thats-not-what-we-meant/

Obviously, to anyone sane, the notion of 'trans children' is all based on stereotypes.

Both these websites have lots of other articles which might answer some of your questions.

notyourhandmaid · 15/02/2021 18:30

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

I keep seeing the Twitter people saying that radical feminists and gender critical women are bio essentialists who want men and women to be 1950s stereotypes based on their birth sex, whereas trans allies want people to break out of those stereotypes. Is this a correct characterisation of gender critical views?
Good q there. Grin

This is a strange accusation that is frequently made but has no basis in fact, and is potentially an example of DARVO tactics (where a perpetrator turns an accusation against them into an accusation against their victim).

Radical and/or gender critical feminists believe that women are oppressed on the basis of their biological sex, and that sex-based stereotypes are to be challenged. Saying that your sex determines your behaviour - e.g. you are male so you like playing with trucks - would be a bad thing. Sex-based stereotypes are used to hurt both men and women - e.g. expecting men to never show their feelings or to be aggressive, expecting women to be always putting others before themselves. (Sometimes people who are gender-critical will focus on how these stereotypes hurt both sexes, other times they will focus on women only, as the disadvantaged group in this hierarchical system.)

Radical and/or gender critical feminists do not believe that anyone's behaviour in society is determined by their biological sex with the exception of their physical capabilities when it comes to reproducing. This follows the standard meaning of 'sex' when it comes to categorising all living things.

Trans rights activism, a movement which does not include all transgender individuals, believes that your gender - the set of sex-based stereotypes linked to you - is more important than your sex, so that a child who likes playing with trucks is a boy because they are doing 'what boys do'. Sometimes the idea of an innate, biological 'gender identity' is suggested as a basis for this way of categorising people, but this does not relate to anything measurable and is not consistent with demands that someone's gender identity never be measured or assessed or questioned in any way.

Biscuitsanddoombar · 15/02/2021 18:20

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

Why do I see many more lesbians being gender critical than gay men?
Because they’re men and TW aren’t trying to aggressively get in their spaces
Awning10 · 15/02/2021 18:18

If you think your under 5 child could be trans then you could buy them one of these:

Winesalot · 15/02/2021 18:17

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

I hear that hardly anyone changes their minds after gender transition and this is evidence that gender identity is a real solid stable thing. Is that true?
No one know how many detransitioners there actually are. No one has recorded this. The clinics do no follow up at all.

It seems that this is a growing group or that at least they are now speaking out.

MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 15/02/2021 18:16

Why do I see many more lesbians being gender critical than gay men?

Kit19 · 15/02/2021 18:14

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

I hear that hardly anyone changes their minds after gender transition and this is evidence that gender identity is a real solid stable thing. Is that true?
destransitioners network

www.detransadv.com/

we know that in the UK, GIDS do not follow up people who simply stop coming to them so of course there's no way to properly quantify it because the information isnt recorded

MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 15/02/2021 18:13

Is it true that some toddlers and preschoolers are identified by their parents as trans?

I thought you had to be an adult or at least have reached puberty to be trans.

How would you know your kid is trans?

In my experience little kids barely know what men and women are. Mine went through a phase of thinking anyone with long hair must be a woman, even Bill Bailey with his little pony tail!!!

Thinking of a comparison with gayness, surely people do not usually accept for certain that they are homosexual until they are well through puberty. How come people think trans becomes clearer sooner?

Kit19 · 15/02/2021 18:13

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

I keep seeing the Twitter people saying that radical feminists and gender critical women are bio essentialists who want men and women to be 1950s stereotypes based on their birth sex, whereas trans allies want people to break out of those stereotypes. Is this a correct characterisation of gender critical views?
not even remotely

GC women believe that gender are the stereotypes associated with biological sex e.g. boys like football, getting muddy, wear trousers and have short hair: girls like pink, sparkles, have long hair and like dolls

there is no way to describe what gender identity is without regressing to gender stereotypes around clothing, presentation and feelings

GC women believe that you can have a buzz cut, wear trousers, be a welder and it makes you no less a woman than someone with long hair, high heels and lipstick because woman isnt a feeling but a biological reality. Similarly a man who likes wearing dresses and make up is just as much a man who wears trousers, short hair and likes drinking beer and watching football.

FemaleAndLearning · 15/02/2021 18:08

Tinycake for a good discussion on sex and gender and also biological differences for those with medical conditions see Fair Play for Women.
fairplayforwomen.com/resources/sex-vs-gender/

fairplayforwomen.com/chromosomes-biological-sex-gender/#multiples

MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 15/02/2021 18:06

I hear that hardly anyone changes their minds after gender transition and this is evidence that gender identity is a real solid stable thing. Is that true?

MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 15/02/2021 18:03

I keep seeing the Twitter people saying that radical feminists and gender critical women are bio essentialists who want men and women to be 1950s stereotypes based on their birth sex, whereas trans allies want people to break out of those stereotypes. Is this a correct characterisation of gender critical views?