Article by Sonia Sodha in the Observer today

What a shame about that Laverne Cox interview. When I read that the recent court judgement ending medical experimentation on children “[put] the UK at odds with international trans healthcare guidelines”, I thought how did this bilge get into the Observer? It usually has a high standard of journalism. I looked up the writer, Eva Wiseman, and found she was a commissioning editor on the Observer. How handy!

Where's the evidence for your assertion?

"Male" is a biological class that cannot be changed through surgery, hormone treatment, psychotherapy or wishful thinking.

Apologies @AlphonsoTheTerrible, I think we are in agreement - Men should never be admitted to female only spaces.
But, I suspect we've interpreted part of the article differently. I read it as stating some women think there should be exceptions to single sex spaces, and I know there are women that believe this, although it's not my personal belief.

I read it as the tongue in cheek opposite by the author, eg default being "males are entitled to women's spaces"
Many women believe there should be exceptions to this default.

Either way it's a good read overall.

Oh it looks like this is alfonso's interpretation - "for" instead of "to".

No, there are no exceptions for men being admitted to female only spaces.

Yes. Thank you. That is precisely what I mean. Men should never be allowed in to female-only spaces.

In novels, making a big deal of people smiling with their teeth is often a literary device to signal threatening, predatory behaviour. Is Eva doing that here? Or is it just the sign of a writer scrabbling to reach the specified word count before the deadline?

I read it that the spaces were the exceptions - that there are some spaces to which males should never be admitted. I can see how the sentence could be read differently though.

I naively wondered if such a thorough profile would mention that sorry episode, Potholes. Cox's critical thinking couldn't be said to be up to snuff. Still, she smiles a lot. With her teeth.

No, there are no exceptions for men being admitted to female only spaces.

If there were no exceptions to the policy "men should be admitted to female spaces" then all men would be admitted to female spaces.

I think that line has been badly subedited, so trying to analyse what it means is fruitless.

[ quote]Did others read it as 'there should be some exceptions to males being prohibited from female-only spaces'?[/ quote]

Sodha is quite clear: Bailey is a black, working-class lesbian and a survivor of child sex abuse who believes, as many women do, that there should be some exceptions to males being admitted to female-only spaces. In other words, in some cases, men should be admitted to female only spaces.

No, there are no exceptions for men being admitted to female only spaces. Female only spaces are for women, ie adult human females.

Interesting interview with Laverne Cox. I see they discussed British feminism and trans rights. Did they discuss what Laverne thinks, these years later, of that decision to advocate for Synthia China Blast?

I remember a transwoman blogger who was absolutely horrified by Cox's actions at the time. Did it not occur to Cox that sometimes people sentenced to life in prison aren't there for stealing a loaf of bread? Details of what Blast is in prison for, here. Warning, it is horrific reading: www.womenarehuman.com/vicious-child-rapist-murderer-demands-sex-change-freedom-synthia-china-blast/

Or maybe some read it as 'there should be some exceptions FOR males being admitted to female-only spaces'.

Or I might be on completely the wrong tangent.

"that there should be some exceptions to males being admitted to female-only spaces".

I'm not entirely clear on what pp are arguing here?

If the default is 'males being admitted to female-only spaces' because of how they identify, many women DO think that there should be some exceptions to this 'default', i.e. that there are either some males, and/or some spaces, for whom/where male access isn't permitted.

For many women this would be all males and all single-sex spaces.

I read it as 'you might be ok with sharing toilets but some women think there should be exceptions such as female prisons, where males are not admitted.' It seemed a very particular way of phrasing it.

Did others read it as 'there should be some exceptions to males being prohibited from female-only spaces'?

It is of course racist and sexist to condemn
Neil O’Brienfor defending Badenoch. Straight, white men are entitled to defend their colleagues and shock, horror even straight, white men can be right too.

I was delighted to read Sonia Sodha's think-piece today. It reminded me that the Observer was an independent and highly reputable Sunday newspaper for 200 years before being bought by the Guardian Media Group in 1993. It's always been more adult than the Guardian, which reads like a handout from a student union these days.

Someone noted on another MN thread today that she'd stopped mocking the Daily Mail because it was now consistently more honest and more reliable in its reporting of transgender issues than the Guardian. Again, I congratulate the Observer for not being pulled down the same juvenile path as the Guardian.

That Laverne Cox interview was very difficult reading, in fact seemed to completely gloss over anything of interest to describe her doing things like "smiling with teeth" and saying bollocks like "It’s really deep that [UK] feminists find themselves aligned with right-wing ideologies."

Wiseman seems to have disappeared up her own arse for this one (IIRC I was surprised to see her name on the letter about Suzanne Moore? Correct me if I'm wrong).

So good on Sonia - a leader writer I see, like Susanna Rustin on the Guardian. Both dealing with facts rather than dazzling Hollywood smiles...

It’s a decent article but of course it is paired with a gushing interview with Laverne Cox in the Observer magazine. Emma ‘handmaiden’ Wiseman’s the interviewer. The US is supposedly more progressive on trans issues than the UK, gender critical “trans exclusionary” feminists are in cahoots with the radical right and we’re also tediously insisting on a “debate” (in scare quotes). Trans people are the most oppressed, especially trans women of colour. And so on. Cox passes, has had (I think) genital surgery and is a film star, so it seems mean to say ‘no’ but the problem that they never mention is that Cox is very much in the minority. The Karen Whites of this world need addressing. Wiseman must know this. I am so, so fed-up with this dishonesty, it’s the worst kind of middle-class moralising bullshit and if it weren’t so tragic, it’d be hilarious that a left-wing newspaper has swallowed it. Last time I’m buying Observer for a while.

Sonia doesn't make this point; she doesn't discuss whether people can change sex.

The last paragraph seems pretty unequivocal:

"Be wary of the white, straight men who call out lesbians and women of colour as bigots because they refuse to comply with the version of liberation they deem appropriate, and who pat themselves on the back for being an “ally” for doing so. Their naivety gives them the luxury of childishly dividing the world into goodies and baddies. The rest of us live with the consequences."

Amen to that.

"Male" is a biological class that cannot be changed through surgery, hormone treatment, psychotherapy or wishful thinking.

Sonia is arguing for boundaries. And making it clear those boundaries exclude men. No namby-pambying around with transwomen as a special category of women.

Second, Sodha claimed that many women believe "that there should be some exceptions to males being admitted to female-only spaces". Oh, yeah? Got evidence for that?

She's not wrong is she? I'd say most women I know would agree to some exceptions, transwomen who have gone through surgical transition and unfortunately there are those who are full on allies.

I was just coming here to post this article. I read The Guardian FB byline and thought this is only going to go one way and was pleasantly surprised when it didn't.

I read the article but was not impressed. First, it conflated gender and sex. Second, Sodha claimed that many women believe "that there should be some exceptions to males being admitted to female-only spaces". Oh, yeah? Got evidence for that?