Lionel Shriver article

Motorcyclemptiness · 2021-02-13T20:04:18+00:00

very well put, IMO [[https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/breastfeeding-is-now-chestfeeding-why-are-the-language-police-trying-to-wipe-out-women-wfqmws0j0]]

ErrolTheDragon · 21/02/2021 09:13

Letters in the Sunday Times in response to this.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/letters-to-the-editor-language-police-twist-trans-cause-kt5vjzh86?shareToken=f93abe4a3392fc62d4ea00ff15a908fc

(Slightly wry aside on the first letter correctly noting that ‘changes to language alter the way we think’ ... from someone sporting a rather feminine forename.)

MsTSwift · 15/02/2021 17:52

Yes she needs to do her next book on this. She’s covered obesity, psychotic children, US health system, obsessive exercise and global economic disaster.

Malahaha · 15/02/2021 17:07

@unwashedanddazed

I bloody love Lionel Shriver. Can't wait for her novel on the subject! (I live in hope.)

Same here. She just won't bow down to the crap.

TheRebelle · 15/02/2021 13:57

@ChateauMargaux

The real motivation behind this to remove the link between female sexual and reproductive functions with the word women. It is not to include transmen, it is to allow the word woman to be redefined to exclude women.

Exactly! A rose by any other name....if we take the female specific words out of women’s health care for transmen then aren’t we just saying that transmen are women by another name, which is supposed to be the opposite of what they want?

Childrenofthestones · 15/02/2021 09:56

"The tyranny of the minority"

Im havin that one. 😊

persistentwoman · 14/02/2021 23:24

Agreed Ragz. You can really see the impact of sunlight in the comments - several years ago these articles attracted limited views and a lot of "ha - this is what you asked for feminists".
Now there's a massive range of comments - many of them powerful / thoughtful. An increasing number of gay men commenting, lots of men "my wife is horrified at this and I support her" with lots of evidence of people having 'educated themselves' as we're always instructed.
And of course a range of passionate feminist posters.
This particular issue has really touched a nerve - impacting on everyone who's a parent with the vast majority horrified.

RagzReturnsRebooted · 14/02/2021 23:16

Best thing about the Times articles is all the sensible comments. I subscribe just for the chance to read them. Some excellent contributors (and some total twats, obviously).

ChateauMargaux · 14/02/2021 16:54

The real motivation behind this to remove the link between female sexual and reproductive functions with the word women. It is not to include transmen, it is to allow the word woman to be redefined to exclude women.

TheTamingOfTheresa · 14/02/2021 15:55

Good point , thank you

MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 14/02/2021 15:28

If it were intended only for the two transmen in the UK who have had babies post-GRC then why did they make a big song and dance about it? I don't see them making pronouncements about how they will care for mothers who are in wheelchairs or are amputees or have learning difficulties and there are a hell of a lot more of them. So they are choosing to make it about more than an individual basis.

TheTamingOfTheresa · 14/02/2021 12:27

I posted the article on social media and am receiving a kicking from people saying it’s being used on an individual basis as an option according to the individual and not being used as a general descriptor . I’ve previously received unpleasantness online when I’ve challenged euphemisms for “ woman” so I hadn’t researched before I posted it. What do people here think?

MichelleofzeResistance · 14/02/2021 12:17

Thank you for the share token

The comments are all very much to the point. Several also discuss how with two TM actually affected, this is becoming more and more obviously not coming from or about meeting the needs of anyone female at all.

Eyesofdisarray · 14/02/2021 11:29

Freddie again?!? Scoring out the word women? Good grief
Did he hate being a woman or just hate women?
Yet women are the sex that do pregnancy and birth- funny that
Talk about cherry picking

ChateauMargaux · 14/02/2021 11:20

Yup, Trans Women and Women but women are not.

MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 14/02/2021 10:00

Why do people look to Freddy for advice? Freddy represents nobody except himself. Freddy famously cannot even prioritise his own child over himself. This is not a person to invite to co-author NHS maternity policy.

Utterly ridiculous that I have to describe Freddy who got pregnant and gestated a baby as "him" to avoid being accused of hate speech.

334bu · 14/02/2021 09:44

Thank you for sharing

MsTSwift · 14/02/2021 09:43

Great! Really interesting decent person. It was at book signings we are not stalkers 😁

stilllovingmysleep · 14/02/2021 09:41

@MsTSwift

Dh and I have met her - twice!

@MsTSwift have you!! What is she like in person?

MsTSwift · 14/02/2021 09:26

Dh and I have met her - twice!

stilllovingmysleep · 14/02/2021 09:25

@MsTSwift

Lionel is the ultimate adult in the room. She is a proper grown up and cuts through word salad pandering nonsense. Her books are great too

@MsTSwift yes love her books. She has a clear way of thinking

BraveBananaBadge · 14/02/2021 08:13

Thanks for sharing - that final paragraph is excellent and has really squared a circle in this issue for me:

"Fair enough, let’s keep making an effort to bring into the fold groups who’ve been shafted or ignored in the past. But making room for minorities needn’t and shouldn’t crowd out the majority. While majorities can abuse their inherent power, they can also suffer abuse."

One thing that has made uncomfortable as I've navigated this whole issue is maybe I was missing something in my (ugh) perceived 'privilege'. Probably just not used to being in a majority of anything 😂

VictoriaLucas123 · 14/02/2021 07:53

I didn’t realise there were only 2 trans men who had given birth in the U.K. Makes it all the more insane. Also struck me, yet again, how the word woman really has been taken from us in these discourses: trans women are women, and women are menstruators (that word gets a red squiggle too).

MsTSwift · 14/02/2021 07:10

Lionel is the ultimate adult in the room. She is a proper grown up and cuts through word salad pandering nonsense. Her books are great too

Wandawomble · 14/02/2021 03:25

@WeeTorag

Thanks for sharing this OP.

Why am I not surprise Freddy M had a hand in this policy? I remember watching the documentary about Freddy and Freddy frantically scoring out the words Female, women, mother etc on the maternity forms as if it was a personal affront to Freddy. And now Freddy has a whole hospital trust policy tailored to Freddy. Lucky Freddy.

You’d have to really hate women to behave that way...

Whatsnewpussyhat · 14/02/2021 02:27

Did FM get maternity leave too?