ONS reversed decision to record census by sex

This is the problem isn't it.

The office of national statistics have decided to change the sex question to legal sex.

They did this because they were worried sex at birth would lead to mass disruption in completion by people who did not find that a reasonable question.

So it's been changed.

Their thinking will be that such a small amount of people will have changed their sex marker on passport etc will be so small it won't matter. Plus that most people will just look at the question male female and tick their sex.

That's a poor way to do things. Across the board language is being changed etc and it's relying on people seeing gender and putting their birth sex as they don't know about the definitions. And making assumptions. That's a terrible way to collect data.

And so it's been changed and lots of women and others are unhappy.

But as ever it's a done deal and we say well what do we do?

Be honest because we know what they want
Be honest according to stonewall (most people are trans)
Put it in religion
Etc etc

So we're left bickering over how to fill in the sodding census to make a point. Because yet again we're on the back foot.

There's no point in saying let's do this or that.

If course it was changed because of the threat of trans activists and their supporters disrupting it.

The idea that women might hasn't crossed their minds.

In my household we are all non binary. And I'm not fucking with it. None of us internally identity as male or female 100% of the time.

And some of us don't have an internal gender identity.

We're trans. By the rules that's what we all are.

That's what I'll do.

Female or male plus trans and non binary. What sex are you? They need to understand for maternity planning, primary schools, elder care etc and so on. But somehow. Actually they don't need to know.

I think it's pointless to argue about what to put where. It's trivial in the end. Feels like doing something but in the end. The question is gone and they are fine with that.

Please dont response to the gender quesiton.

It is optional.

It is reallly important to show that for 99.9% of the population this is totally irrelevant.

hand fill in either 'none' or 'gender critical

Hmmm but will it simply be registered as a "gender" after all it could sound like one if you've seen anything about agender/gender variant/non gender/gender fluid etc.
This would massively increase the trans population which helps no one.
And I'm not sure that putting none is a great idea either.

We probably need to know how each answer we could give will be noted.
And I don't know how we would find that out

Written to my MP to complain and donated to FPFW.

I think using the religion section to record that you are gender critical is problematic. There will be gender critical individuals may have a strong religious faith and so those people will have to choose whether to write their faith or their gender critical status. I think we have to use the optional gender question to register our protest and hand fill in either 'none' or 'gender critical'. And we need to make a decision and then publicise it. Agree writing to local papers is a good idea.

Well there you go. All the tax payer money will be spent so the BBC can write lots of lovely fuzzy feel articles about how lovely the visibility is.

Totally fucked up planning, compelled belief, no idea how many people of what sex we actually have, and whoops self id by stealth and the erasure of sex as a concept, but isn't it nice .

The BBC today:

www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-wales-55721123

If I put female and No for "Does your gender identity match your sex" (because I am gender critical/have no gender identity) does that make them think I am:

A) A transman who hasn't legally changed sex yet?
B) A transwoman born male but who subsequently chnaged sex to female but is now in the process of detransitioning?
C) A person who is legally female (perhaps born, perhaps subsequently chnaged) who now feel they are gender neutral/fluid/non binary?
D) A biological female woman who doesn't feel they have a gender identity or who identifies as non binary/ gender fluid?
E) A female version of Eddie Izzard who is in 'boy mode" on the day they happen to be filling in the form?

The possibilities seem endless to me and hence don't help anyone either identify how many men, women or trans people there are so what is the point?

Surely all the non-binary, gender fluid brigade are pissed off about the gender question too as they also can't answer "does your gender identity match you sex" as declared in teh first section. And any trans people who are happy with their legal sex change will answer yes, so how will they be distinguished from big standard men and women?

"FPFW have instructed a barrister to see if ONS have/are breaking the law."

Brilliant. This is what's needed.

I'll happily contribute towards any digging required to support this - a clear, factual, legal analysis of the stance taken by ONS in respect of the collection of data on sex should be the starting point.

I think requesting the paper form still needs to be a tactic as the ONS will certainly get a clearer idea as to how many women they are risking not capturing (while we all bugger off on wild camping) & I hope that helps them get a sense of the strength of feeling on this.

But clarifying the legal position for possible JR is a vital step.

I'm thinking about filling it out honestly I. Sex - female (as I am, born female, female chromosomes and passport says female) and Gender Identity - none, as I honestly don't feel like I have one.

in the old days I would have defaulted to I am female and am a woman, but since being forced to examine this by the gender fluid, non binary trend, I have had to conclude that I genuine do not feel any identity particularly connected to being female, or at all. Has anyone seen what the chooses will be for this question?

Does Sex - female, Gender Identity - none convey the gender critical position of many women properly?

And similarly for my male partner, who is also gender critical - sex - male, gender identity - none?

Seriously: well done FPFW.

I will wait for the largest consensus on how to respond.

But I will not be filling out a form that gives me no option but to comply with personally agreeing to a political/pseudo religious belief I am strongly atheist about. That way madness lies.

And to be very clear about this: I am very happy for there to be as many options for as many additional things on that form as people want.

What I will not do is agree that I have a gender identity, or that I agree sex is a concept and a choice instead of a fact, or fill out a form that will only allow me to progress (and not be fined) if I comply with the above. Or co operate with a census that no longer collates factual, necessary and usable information.

t's up to you to decide how you would like to answer each question. Do it in the way that you feel best represents you.

Aaaand if there was any doubt that this is now a very, very expensive 'lets all have a fun time filling it out and bugger worrying about a huge pile of completely useless, pointless data that renders the collation of it not only pointless but unethical', that's put it to rest.

Yeah, fill it out with your 'best self' and have fun. Who knows how you may feel in the moment when you're writing the answers? Why not, its only tax payer money and ten years of local services being able to plan to meet need in the middle of a pandemic.

Thanks, Cormorant. So, if all boxes other than Sex were correctly filled in, it would be a valid but incomplete return. However, the correct information is on the return form so it might be difficult to be fined for this? (Just thinking aloud really.)

Please tell me this is a wind-up.

mobile.twitter.com/archer_rs/status/1361263393722753024/photo/1

What if I do not identify with the census options?

The census asks you about your ethnicity, gender and sexual orientation, religion and national identity. It's up to you to decide how you would like to answer each question. Do it in the way that you feel best represents you.

alljhuizinga the paper copies are entered via a scanner as far as I am aware. Just be mindful that there is a process that they call 'remove false persons', which means that if there are invalid entries on a certain number of 'key variables' then the record with be thrown out (and probably not even looked at). As far as I am aware you need to have a valid response for: name (on the individual or household grid variables), date of birth, sex, marital status and ethic group. You need to have a valid response on at least two of these for your record to be included (one of them needs to be either name or dob).

I think the approach of putting Gender Critical in religion is the one most likely to be actually noticed and recorded.

"People will lie so there is no point in even trying to collect accurate data" is a ridiculous, shameful excuse.

If we can be fined for boycotting the census, surely people could be fined for providing inaccurate information about their sex, if caught? Extra random checks could be done. How else do they ensure that people complete it accurately?

FPFW have instructed a barrister to see if ONS have/are breaking the law.

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1361239632931921920?s=21

Just off now to the allotment...

I'm furious about this and have been wondering how to protest, whilst providing accurate information. Something along the lines of asking for a paper copy and instead of ticking the "female" box writing "Sex is not a concept. I am female" or similar. I assume entries on paper copies will have to be manually entered onto the data base so this would at least have nuisance value. My preference, however, would be to go for Judicial Review. Funding this might be cheaper than potential £1,000 fines.

Just read this bbc article: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55721123 saying it's a great 'first step' asking for gender on the census.
Interesting that only trans people are able to filter out transphobic genders such as 'attack helicopter' from 'real' validating genders!

Postponing it makes sense given the door to door follow up in person that they seem to be expecting their staff to do.

Might be useful to support this union campaign, as it would give more time to challenge the questions! www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/feb/10/call-for-england-and-wales-census-to-be-postponed-amid-covid-concerns

Scotland has postponed the census for a year for Covid reasons.

re. Self appointed leaders

I think sometimes it can seem that way, not just because some active groups take it upon themselves to then use their position to criticise others (there have been threads aboutt this so dont want to derail this thread). And part of the problem is too many are happy to have their feminism spoon fed to them and go in for this sad fan feminism.

But there are other groups getting on with their work from their perspective and women supporting their campaigning.

So in fact those of us on mumsnet have an advantage. There are a range of groups working on gender critical issues. They offer different analysis and suggested actions.

We can pick and choose the bits that match our own politics.

And in some way mumsnet operates far closer to 70s women's liberation local groups than any of the groups claiming they are 21st century reincarnation of WLM. That's because women's liberation was based on local groups where women without claiming to be experts or specialists met together to share information and ideas on issues of common interest. This might lead to joining a campaign or writing to an MP or ... Or (post lockdown) having a stall in the local market or ...

So as others have said, even if it can seem fruitless we need to make our voices heard.

I was wondering whether this might be something to raise locally (depending on how visible you feel you can be)? eg local councils as much as central Government use census stats for planning, funding and so on. A letter to a local paper (if your area still has one) could probably reach a of people who might have no awareness of what is intended.

Even just to state the obvious. That the census is meant to capture actual facts at a particular moment in time. And even if people can legal "change their sex" it is important to know how many people who are registered as birth as one sex, later decide they want to transition. This would also be relevant to planning services.

(personally I think we should all ignore the gender question. Do not legitimise it by answering it. Show it up for being irrelevant to 99.9% of the population.)

If all the transgender people fill in that they are already the sex they identify with, is there any apparent need for provision of NHS funding for transitioning?

If biology is no longer an accepted science, is it now a religion?