Breastfeeding is now chestfeeding, Brighton’s trans-friendly midwives are told

It's just part of the background noise to them and not something that really impinges on their life. It's important to try and keep a sense of perspective I think.

I agree and I think it's important also to future-proof language and laws in language that would impact future generations.

If this policy and others go by without question and general awareness isn't raised by media coverage, threads like this etc, changes would be made without us even knowing about it and you can't react if you're not informed. A bit like the GRA.

It's fair for women to have concerns around the removal of the word mother based on all we know so far about the word women. If the gender ideologists and self ID supporters didn't make such a fuss over the word women, and if this was a stand alone event, it might have gone by unnoticed but their timing is off, it's too late now, the cat is out of the bag.

It would be good to know if an impact equality assessment was done and if there are similar policies around pregnant disabled/BAME women or women of other minority groups ...or maybe these groups don't want language in maternity services to be changed.

I think this cuts both ways btw. From a trans perspective it often feels like this is all the media talk about, and that the propaganda in the right wing press is relentless. But when I say that to someone not actively involved in the debate they'll often say really, they haven't noticed, or if they have it's alongside all the other stuff in the r/w press like refugees, BLM etc. It's just part of the background noise to them and not something that really impinges on their life. It's important to try and keep a sense of perspective I think.

Suddenly a chest infection is unclear whether it's lungs or mammary ducts. Unhelpful and illogical.

It's madness. If you a transwoman who has always wanted to be female instead of male, surely you would embrace the use of female pronouns? Just pretty sure being a femald who is desperate to be a man, and vice versa, but not employ any of the correct pronouns, and insist on entire birth language changed to suit themselves? It's beyond idiocy. I'm all for equality and people being who they want, but not when the logic is so fundamentally flawed that everyone has to change for their twisted logic. It's like years ago when The Daily Fail and The Shite spread lies saying Muslims want to ban the term happy Christmas. Well no, most Muslims couldn't care less what you said at Xmas, it was just a tiny minority (like this) who wanted it changed for everyone to support their own twisted, bigoted, extreme views. People were up in arms about it. To me this is no different, aside from this has actually gained traction If your a woman identifying as a man then by all means ask midwives to use your correct pronouns, but don't ask them to use it for the majority of people who don't identify with it just to support your twisted logic. And yes Daily Fail I am looking at you. I'll support everyone's right to free speech and equal rights, but not when it's at the expense of my own

Fantastic NancyDrawed! Brilliant points.

I looked to see if anyone had put in an FOI request about this new policy and will be interested to see the outcome of this one:

*Dear Brighton and Sussex University Hospitals NHS Trust,

Whilst browsing Twitter today I came across your trans/nb inclusion leaflet and policy. Could you please provide me with the documents, research papers and names of any organisations you relied on to help you formulate your policy.

Whilst checking your website under special services I couldn't find any inclusive policies in the list regarding disabled and the BAME women Could you also provide me with policies that relate to both of these groups*

I might yet submit one myself around this but feel suitably chastened by the plea to not add work to an overburdened NHS during a pandemic. It'll keep, though.

This link to BSUH NHS Trust Maternity/'Perinatal' Specialist Gender Services was posted on a previous page in this thread.

It is worth reading through the additional services offered in order to be gender inclusive, it's definitely not all about language. Read and compare with the other specialised services on the BSUH maternity pages. It is clear that the gender specialised services are more extensive, more personalised, and a lot more expensive than the services offered to pregnant women, and more extensive than the other specialised maternity services listed on the site (for teenage mothers, mothers with mental health requirements for example).

The Specialist Gender Services include Specialist medical professionals, Gender Inclusive Midwives, Gender Inclusive Consultant Obstetrician, GI Consultant Neonatologist, GI Consultant Endocrinologist, GI Speciality Doctor in Sexual & Reproductive Health, and GI Specialist Infant Feeding Midwife.

.
Additional Gender Inclusive Support available includes:

'As Gender Inclusion Midwives we can provide extra support to you during and following your pregnancy, alongside your regular community midwife appointments. This can include:

Talking about where you would feel most comfortable having your midwife appointments (e.g. at home instead of at a Children’s Centre)

Pronoun stickers for your notes (these are optional, they will only be used if you wish to communicate your pronouns to all healthcare professionals you may meet)

Company and support at other appointments, such as scans

Personalised birth, feeding and parenting preparation (antenatal classes) at home .....

Tour of the hospital facilities where you may choose to have your baby .... '

www.bsuh.nhs.uk/maternity/our-services/specialist-support/gender-inclusion/

.

Well said OhHolyJesus.

What about a lesbian couple who ask that birthing parents be used rather than mother because they are both mothers?

No. Legally only one of them is the mother. Otherwise should egg donors be called mothers? How else would the lesbian partner of the woman who is pregnant and/giving birth a mother? She would be legal parent if they are married but don't you have to adopt the child to get parental rights? A midwife might ask who to hand the baby to for a first cuddle and as they are in the room a midwife would use 1sr person language... she might ask terms they prefer but that's between them, it doesn't require a policy.

if a trans man presents to maternity services and asks for trans inclusive language to be used do you think the HCPs should ignore him and refer to him as a woman/mother?

There really is no need to do anything other than by name:

"Push Freddy, ok now breath"

"How are you feeling now is the epidural wearing off?"

HCPs make accommodation to language and how they treat people for all kinds of cultural and social reasons.

Do you have any examples? HCPs deal with bodies so biology is pretty key to how they explain treatment and unless someone is unconscious or a minor the treatment is discussed directly with the patient.

And it's hardly lying to use chest feeding, its just a different way of describing something and one which does not affect you in the slightest.

Mastitis is an infection of milk ducks in your breast/s it is not a chest infection. Your ability to breath with your lungs is not connected to your breasts and I think this whole thread is testament to how it affects everyone judging by those commenting.

Also you can human milk feed with a bottle so human milk might not involve breastfeeding. You can change words to mean different things in your own head but when you do so you can't expect people to understand you and good communication during medical situations is important.

Fair point Daisies

And it's hardly lying to use chest feeding, its just a different way of describing something and one which does not affect you in the slightest

Except is doesn't describe the process at all...and it does effect us as women, even if not on an individual basis - because it represents the insidious creep of reality denying nonsense.

I think anyone studying moral panics and what psychological needs are met by them would do well to read some of these threads

'Moral panic' is the latest catch-all term in hear being used in recent weeks......

The point is that whatever the case in this specific instance ( of advice to Brighton's midwives), the relentless ideological push is still behind it.

The best advice is not to engage with community disrupters.

Some people have no skin in the game.

I think that women themselves are best placed to decide what is and is not appropriate in midwifery and women’s health.

And it's hardly lying to use chest feeding, its just a different way of describing something and one which does not affect you in the slightest.

I wouldn’t call it lying exactly, but it isn’t accurate, therefore it is not benign to use it generally ‘alongside’ other communication, even if it is appropriate in a very limited number of situations.

It also does affect people generally if gender is forced onto existing gender neutral language.

jj1968

As a matter of fact - biology, the transman has given birth, so therefore has "mothered" the baby.
Nobody should be compelled to tell lies in order to validate some other person's belief system.

jj1968 you haven't read my post or the quote you have copied.

"a gender-additive approach means using gender-neutral language alongside the language of womanhood, in order to ensure that everyone is represented and included".

This ^^ is the problem. It doesn't make sense.

'Breastfeeding' is not 'the language of womanhood'. It is a completely gender neutral term that describes how humans whose SEX is female can feed babies. It does not imply anything about gender identity or relative levels of femininity.

'Chest-feeding' is not gender neutral, it is being used incorrectly to provide a 'masculine' alternative to people who suffer from dysphoria. This then turns 'breastfeeding' into a feminine term.

It's the equivalent of taking a neutral term like farmer and 'adding' 'farmeress' on the basis that the existing word doesn't already include women.

'Breast' is a neutral description for the structures in both males and females on the exterior of the chest.

Men have nipples and breast tissue and can get breast cancer (though at much lower numbers than women). See the Cancer UK website for details.

Chest includes the whole of the upper part of the torso, including the interior.

A chest X-ray A chest x-ray produces images of the heart, lungs, airways, blood vessels and the bones of the spine and chest.

Chestfeeding is a nonsense word, in common speech and in medical parlance.

"We are taking a gender-additive approach to the language used to describe our services," a statement from the hospital explains.

It adds that "a gender-additive approach means using gender-neutral language alongside the language of womanhood, in order to ensure that everyone is represented and included".

But men have breasts so why would men be offended about breastfeeding. Its not a necessity, if they have retained their breasts but their breast cause disphoria then they don't have to breastfeed.

Well if trans men say this makes them uncomfortable and they would prefer a different term to be used then why not, whatever the reasons? HCPs make accommodation to language and how they treat people for all kinds of cultural and social reasons. And surely it's important that trans men feep comfortable and confident accessing healthcare. More important in fact than someone's outrage that someone else may use terms to describe themselves that annoy them.

editing to add:

"specifically changing gender neutral language (breastfeeding) to gendered and inaccurate language"

I'm not really seeing any rage. Just some guidance issued that helps HCPs understand how to make maternity services more welcoming for trans men.

It's not clear whether this is guidance on patient specific care, or guidance on general communication.

If it's patient specific care, it's just good practice. Within reason care is supposed to be non-judgemental and patient focused, and any HCP will have to accommodate people from different cultures and backgrounds.

However, specifically changing gender neutral language (breastfeeding) to gendered language (chestfeeding masculine, breastfeeding masculine) in general communication would be wrong.

JJ, why is breastfeeding offensive for transmen?

Can you not see that language, particularly medical language, needs to be accurate? Pain in the breasts is very different, and requires very different treatment to pain in the chest - would a medical practitioner be expected to refer to a transman's 'chest' if they were experiencing mastitis for example?