My Name Is Anna. I've been called a terf - is the BBC starting to permit open discussion?

Interesting Twitter link @nauticant, I see the first reply is a young she/her who complained to the BBC because views like Anna's lead to 'very real violence'. These people really, really can't see the wood for the trees, can they?

I think we need to be able to talk about how incredibly offensive and harmful it is to force people, particularly women, to agree to the concept of gender.

Christine Evans Urology surgeon in Wales was my hero decades ago she was renowned for her surgeries, turning a penis into a vagina

Even with my CSE biology I know that you cannot turn one body organ into another. It's very important that we continue to use language that is precise and correct as everyone will be able to better understand:

A female's internal reproductive organs are the vagina, uterus, fallopian tubes, and ovaries. The vagina is a muscular, hollow tube that extends from the vaginal opening to the uterus. Because it has muscular walls, the vagina can expand and contract.

Women do not pee from their vagina.

Off topic but can I just say that BoreofWhabylon is one of the best user names I've seen on Mumsnet.

Made me laugh out loud today so thanks BoreofWhabylon

if you say trans women are not women you are transphobic

And if you say trans women are women you are gynophobic. There's not squaring that particular circle.

I thought this was a good listen. I must say it was good to hear more moderate voices from the trans perspective. It gave me one of those 'oh, what if I'm wrong moments?' thinking about healthcare and using language that makes people feel comfortable and accepted. And then I realised the language is balkanizing what it is to be a woman. People who menstruate but can't get pregnant. People who get pregnant but can't chestfeed. People who used to have a cervix but don't any more. People who carry a baby but don't parent it. We lose the word that encompasses all those people, and that makes it so, so much harder to join the dots and see the systemic mechanisms that underpin their shared experience.

None of this matters very much if you take the view, as many young people seem to, and as I know I did before the full weight of the patriarchy came crashing down on me after I carried and birthed my babies, that individual self-expression and acceptance is paramount. But once you realise that we need class-based analysis and mechanisms to address the systemic disadvantage that women - whatever their biological cans and can'ts - experience in society because of their sexed bodies and all the expectations that they absorb and embody around those bodies - then we must keep a word that describes them as a class.

@worryBadger Wow. Even MN won't allow a debate!

We need to be more mutually honest without females being accused of being terfs if we disagree with their point of view.

It struck me how thoughtful Anna was and how open to other opinions she made herself. And how utterly hardline and unbendable Jamie and his missus where.

I really wish someone in the media would just explore it from the female perspective, considering our feelings. It's always about "trans rights".

It was a start, at least.

The polls that show transwomen should be allowed in women’s bathrooms never seem to explain at the start of the survey exactly what a transwoman is, that it includes men with intact genitalia and beards for eg.

When they do, and some of them have, the consensus is no. So I find it very dishonest that this justification is trotted out.

[quote BitMuch]OU professor SG Chappell did a great job at NAMALTing . . .

Said "I pass myself if I don't speak". Photographed here
eicsp.org/events/event-details/784-an-evening-with-prof-sophie-grace-chappell-18-june-2020[/quote]
Goodness me. I haven’t seen frilly petticoats and patent leather Mary Janes like that since about 1950. No wonder men don’t take women seriously, we don’t look the part, what with all the confusing clothing we wear these days.

I STILL don't think transwomen understand (or want to understand) the fear that many female-bodied people have of male-bodied people in sensitive places. I think a lot of this is because they do not have the same experiences as many female-bodied people. Having a female body for many of us means we are treated differently from small children according to our society and culture.

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be something that can be discussed openly. Even in this broadcast, the focus was on the feelings of transwomen - not anyone else.

fairplayforwomen.com/penis/

Approx 2.8% of the transgender community undergo any gender affirming treatment, leaving 97% with self-identification with no modifications.

[quote BitMuch]I'm going to relisten later as I was busy while listening. Did they mention the triple homicide of two Michfest attending lesbian women and their son by a Camp Trans attendee? www.gendertrending.com/2019/08/13/media-blackout-on-dana-rivers-michfest-murder-trial/[/quote]
no mention of that @BitMuch

Christine Evans Urology surgeon in Wales was my hero decades ago she was renowned for her surgeries, turning a penis into a vagina, the BBC actually had a documentary where they filmed what she did. I thought at last we were tackling this subject and treating patients as they should be treated with respect. What I see now on social media is the palest shadow of what she strove for. My neighbour at the time had the operation, not for the faint hearted but she went for it because she knew she would finally be happy and she was.

The polls that show transwomen should be allowed in women’s bathrooms never seem to explain at the start of the survey exactly what a transwoman is, that it includes men with intact genitalia and beards for eg.

'It's a huge thing to think about - what makes me a woman?' laughs the patronising self-styled cs woman*

Presumably visits to the doctor are a struggle.

I cringed to hear the woman of that couple identifying herself as a cis woman .

Still, its a start to actually be able to have a useful discussion without recourse to accusations and insults.

I assume it wasn't "Anna from Warwickshire"?

A choice between two sides, one clamouring to remove their own bodily autonomy so amounting to a vote for keeping men the hell out of their uteruses, or a vote for removing their definition of 'woman' entirely with all the language-wrestling and moral quagmire that entails.

Right: You don't need rights because women don't deserve rights
Left: You don't need rights because there are no women

Same shit, different day.

I'm going to relisten later as I was busy while listening. Did they mention the triple homicide of two Michfest attending lesbian women and their son by a Camp Trans attendee? www.gendertrending.com/2019/08/13/media-blackout-on-dana-rivers-michfest-murder-trial/