Do you talk about this at home?

Hi - yes, we talk about it. At first I think it all came from me, but for quite some time my DH has also - independently - been hit with this nonsense, through his own social media and more recently through an attempted pronouns policy at his work (it failed - ha ha!!).

He was on a social zoom call with his old uni friends last night - five of them - men in their forties/fifties. One is living in Trinidad (like you do) and is completely clueless about the whole thing - but hey, I doubt trans rights is much of a thing there. The other four, discuss it every time they meet. They all think it's complete bs and really enjoy sharing the latest gender identity absurdities they've encountered.

Having said that - I feel like you OP. Just so angry and aggravated by the whole thing. It definitely affects me in a different way.

My teen kids think the whole thing is crazy too. They know humans can't change sex and have embraced their changing bodies very happily. They talk about various elements of gender ideology quite often, and never with agreement. They don't feel quite the anger I do - but that's probably a good thing!

We are regretting the SNP position and treatment of JC. Damn

Same here, I’m now politically homeless.

Discuss when it comes up - me and MrsPan ( I am male) are on the same page. I've mentioned here that I am subject to work formal procedures for tweeting TWANW. The reach and consequence of the ideology was brought home.
Dd is a trainee nurse and is GC.

We are regretting the SNP position and treatment of JC. Damn.

I have spoken to DD (12) about this - she identifies as queer, has a girlfriends, but obviously nothing physical has happened with them as this was all since lockdown.

Several mates identify as gay and a few non-binary, and I can tell there is a possibility she will want to identify as NB too, at the moment she says maybe she is 'gender fluid' due to wanting to express herself differently on different dats, but I have spoken frankly with her that I think a lot of young people are identifying as NB as way of saying that they dislike gender stereotypes, rather than a profound sense they are of neither gender - which is what I think it should mean really, and may apply to a small number of people. I have expressed to her, while she still has some respect for my opinion, that if she wishes to make a statement about gender stereotypes, it is far more powerful statement to say 'I am a woman/man, but I don't have to be like this or that in order to be so'. I find myself in agreement with the view I have heard that the way kids are using 'non-binary' is essentially rather self-indulgent, in the sense that it just excludes them from 'the rules' rather than actually challenging gender norms.

Thanks @JoodyBlue

Yes. Our daughters pick up on all kinds of socialization despite our best efforts, don't they? I think DD has 'higher expectations' for mom to 'be kind' (yes, sexism as we are the caregivers), though she does agree with me on generalized misogyny because she experiences that in so many ways...she hasn't yet connected gender ideology w/ sexism...it's like a waiting game for them to get it, isn't it? At least DD believes in biology...she just sees this as a civil rights issue and imagines all TW to be like her gentle, shy, probably gay, male friend who has dysphoria.

Ive spoken about it with my DP and DC, they get it but care less than me. I’ve discussed it with some female relatives, all female relatives I’ve discussed it with agree although one leans slightly towards ‘be kind’ as she once knew a TW she liked whilst acknowledging the problem. Two young male relatives are TWAW, both are misogynistic arses - probably a coincidence

Yes, endlessly. DP gets sick of me going on about it, but he does agree with me. When we lived apart and had different MPs, he was happy to send his MP the letters I drafted and he even had a phone call with his MP about the GRA. Dd is onyl 7 but so far she knows that behaviour has nothing to do whether your a boy or a girl; she knows she's a girl because she has eggs in her tummy so that's a good start!

Prison isn’t an abstract concept for some of us. I know a number of men including relatives who are still or who have been in prison. I wouldn’t want to be in the same prison as any of them.I only know of one woman who has been been in prison which given the proportions of women to men in prison is not too surprising (I knew her mother slightly never met the daughter in person)
And I just remembered a female relative who has been in prison.

Yes I have in the very recent past but I now wish I hadn't as it's formed the backstory for why they have expressed this in their mid-late teens and not sooner.

I find myself so ineloquent when I try to talk about it. I’m reading lots and trying to learn but I struggle to get my points across.

We don’t talk often around the subject but when things are in the news - like WWF person who announced this week that they are now a trans woman. My husband is very sensible generally but only really says “it’s tricky isn’t it” - no it’s bloody not

But that's what frustrates me...DD just sees him as her old dad who doesn't get it but she's mad at me whenever I can't summon the fucks to use ever changing pronouns of her friend group when it's just her and I chatting

@Delphinium20

I think that speaks to our collective socialization, that we are less likely to challenge males. And that it's more acceptable to and easier to berate women. That's not at all to say you've taught that. Kids pick up social cues from many sources. ❤️

My DH is left of center politics - actively supported gay marriage rights but believes gender stuff is nonsense. He didn't even climb a mountain to get there. He's fully aware of sex differences and when woke DD tries to explain the new groupthink he just laughs out loud. But that's what frustrates me...DD just sees him as her old dad who doesn't get it but she's mad at me whenever I can't summon the fucks to use ever changing pronouns of her friend group when it's just her and I chatting.

But, I do it for one child who I love dearly and whose pronoun changes went hand in hand with very debilitating mental health...he has asked that we do it and while I won't around his parents (who appreciate our safe space to discuss his health and who are my closest friends), I do it in front of DD and use his new name as he asked me, but I was honest with him and told him I worried for his health. The tragedy of watching a loved one struggle with dysmorphia and other mental health is gut wrenching. There's a social contagion that seems to hurt vulnerable young people who don't fit restrictive molds so beautiful boys and girls who should be celebrated for their unique personalities and gifts instead are being led into a regressive ideology that reinforces their differences, rather than integrates them as normal behavior for boys or girls. Thankfully his parents realized this early on and refused puberty blockers or hormones but just treated all mental health as best they could. I truly fear for his future as I believe college will isolate him further from reality-OR he grows up and looks back in gratitude to his parents. Sorry for the long post but I came to MN originally because of this loved one.

Yes. My DH is on board and agrees with the GC stance. He’s not militant about but he’s increasingly aware and will bring up examples of things he feels are wrong. At work their boss made a big song and dance about ‘exciting news’ - one of his colleagues had ‘come out as non binary and transgender’ and ‘had new pronouns’. He was annoyed enough to have a private chat with a colleague about this and (as senior managers) to agree to keep an eye out that there’s no progression beyond the ‘excitement’ that might affect any sex based rights.

My sons are already aware that women have biological differences to men - only women can have periods etc, and that they should feel free to like pink/ do cross stitch etc and girls in their class might well like to play football etc - these are all stereotypes. But that you can’t change sex. (They are primary school age but I’ve had age appropriate discussions at relevant moments).

My brother is highly GC - works in academia and so has started coming up against the pronouns etc for a while. It pisses him off and he bought me Abigail Shrier’s Irreversible Damage for Christmas!

My mum and sister are on board but less militant than I am. My dad ‘knows he agrees with J K Rowling’ but that’s about it.

Yes i do, weekly at least.

My DH finally got it and announced "so basically the issue is it reenforces male privilege because there will be the mens room which is male only space but also female space will become mens space too. So men can go everywhere and women can only go to one space which is going to be unisex whether they want it or not. That's not great"

Old enough to know better War but the online MRA stuff started @ 14/15 (via gaming sites surprised?)

He accessed therapy and moved away from the worst incel-type stuff, helped a female friend when she was abused by a male friend, supporting her and opening challenging him (verbally not physically)

However there is a specific person who has infiltrated his online crowd and that person has a personal vendetta.

I don’t have first hand evidence of other teens being targeted in a less personal way but from what I’ve read, and given our experience of his initial contact with incel/MRA/TRA ideology, it is my opinion that there is grooming of male teens/pre-teens specifically intended to separate them from their families by creating tensions.

This has two direct effects:

It creates lonely, isolated, disaffected and vulnerable pre-teen/teens who trust a randomer on the internet more than their family.

It keeps mothers on high alert and fire-fighting constantly so we are prevented from agitating for social change on our own behalf because (generally) our primary focus is on our children’s safety and well-being.

Neither of these effects are good for children, teenagers, women or even men who care about the welfare of women and youngsters.

My DH is a dyed in the wool Marxist, so fully gender critical. I wouldn't have married him otherwise! DD is only a baby, but I'm already afraid for her future.

DH and DD14 are both fully in board with my Gc views and think it’s all bollocks. I’ve talked enough about it at home for them to now roll their eyes and exclaim loudly “yes we know, you can’t change your sex!” to stop me ranting.

However I think DD would be confident enough to ask relevant questions at school should the topic crop up because she’s a bit gobby like her mother. She’s lucky that her school’s not been Stonewalled so RSE is rather non-contentious. I have been at pains to point out that unlike her and her friends, I was not allowed to play football at school, no girls were. There were no football or rugby teams for girls and the only reason they have a girls team at all age groups is because of people like me who fought for the right to play the sports we wanted.

It’s good to hear from others in this position.

Here, DH totally gets it and thinks it’s all bollocks. But at the same time doesn’t realise the extent of capture I don’t think. DS was fairly neutral, but recently asked, why when I am so progressive in my approach to women, people of different races and sexuality was I not on this issue. I think it may have been after a school session because we’ve not spoken about it since.

One of the reasons why is that I had a mahoosive bust up with my DD about it over the summer. She believes everything she’s been told at school (we are in one of the wokest parts of the country). It was awful. She was so angry and hardly spoke to me for a number of weeks. Things are so much better now that I am taking a different tack.

As PP have said, my anger and activity is and will be directed outward. At those in education, politics and welfare, who have enabled this. I will not have division in my home. If it comes up in future I will be encouraging some critical thinking and just asking stupid questions:

Is gender identity the same in Mogadishu as Milton Keynes?
If TWAW, can they have babies?
Who perpetrates violence against TW.
Why would I be such a bigot, after I marched in protest at clause 28, etc?

Part of my thinking is that this ideology thrives on division between parents and children. I don’t want to contribute to that so am treading a fine line. But it’s tiring, and I don’t want to be thinking about having to defend women’s rights in the second decade of the 21st century. I somehow thought we’d have that sorted by now.

I bloody love that artwork.

Well, when you put it like that @furx I shall refrain from any dialling down....