Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

ACLU on sex and biology

59 replies

andyoldlabour · 05/02/2021 14:16

According to the American Civil Lberties Union

"The ACLU went on to explain that, first of all, “trans girls are girls,” and that the idea of sex being rooted in biology is a “myth.”

Wow, where do we start, or indeed finish with that statement?

www.dailywire.com/news/aclu-issues-twitter-thread-allegedly-debunking-myths-about-trans-students-in-sports?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=benshapiro&fbclid=IwAR2qZtgBD9IwAaOlMf6C6B_xFJ907VsBtwtyFmV3Pthgd1UMIdBhlOXcbYw

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Zinco · 10/02/2021 14:01

I guess we can only be grateful, that the ACLU don't have a way to sue people if they refuse to sleep with a trans-person.

I mean, if you really want to affirm their gender, that has to include dating and sex yes?

Zinco · 10/02/2021 13:44

Quoting the ACLU:

"According to Dr. Adkins, “When a school or athletic organization denies transgender students the ability to participate equally in athletics because they are transgender, that condones, reinforces, and affirms the transgender students’ social status as outsiders or misfits who deserve the hostility they experience from peers.”

www.aclu.org/news/lgbt-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked/

Of course it doesn't logically mean anyone "deserves hostility".

But what the ACLU wants to say, is let them on the team, because we are trying to affirm them in their self-identified gender.

And that's enough to lie and pretend it's not unfair...

QueenoftheAir · 10/02/2021 12:37

Just coming back to this thread, to recommend the Savage Minds podcast with a discussion between Julian Vigo and Heather Brunskell-Evans on Mill, Foucault, and their discussion on the mis-readings (or non-readings) of Foucault and Butler, et al.

Really really interesting & invigorating to hear two experts who've actually read this stuff, and come to it as radical feminists.

I find Dr Brunskell-Evans's comment that Foucault offers tools to think with, to be pretty much what I'm trying (far less expertly) to say upthread.

Anyway, it's an excellent listen.

JaimeLeeCurtains · 07/02/2021 10:09

There is definitely a sense of 'multiple realities' for me when I watch the news about Trump and Trumpery on different US and UK news outlets.

I want a democratic material reality back. Not the multiple realities of petty tyrants and their barons or the insidious mission creep of organisations like the ACLU and Stonewall.

NecessaryScene1 · 06/02/2021 20:54

Which is a bit of an issue if your ability to act depends on the wider public believing that your opinions have credibility.

Well, yes. There's a reason Trump's "Fake News" shtick stuck. Clearly a huge number of organisations in the U.S., including media, have been captured by a weird ideological authoritarian clique, and have their own Trumpian disregard for reality if it's ideologically inconvenient.

It drives me nuts as a lefty classical liberal who would quite like rational media + organisations.

Can't imagine how actual right-wingers must feel seeing this circus. There's no end of source material to be blown out of proportion by ideologues on the other side.

mindtheclegs · 06/02/2021 17:28

Jennifer Bilek writes on ACLU's involvement with body dissociation / big pharma. It's no coincidence really that ACLU are pushing this.

twitter.com/bjportraits/status/1357707568362250247?s=21

9toenails · 06/02/2021 16:22

QueenoftheAir:
'... just pointing out that there is an element of "truth" (whatever that is ...) in some of Butler's starting points .

Can I, in my turn, point out that there may be some who are not so interested in "truth" (whatever that is). Some are interested in whether or not what Butler says is true.

[Long ago, I was advised to beware of scare quotes. When you write "truth", are you talking about truth, or something else? If you are talking about truth, why the quotes? And if of something else, then what ? -- Please say. So I was advised; I pass on the advice.]

Do we know what it is for something to be true? Well, pace Tarski & co., yes, more or less, we do. Since Aristotle, at least: ' ... to say of what is that it is, and of what is not that it is not, is true .'

OK, I am being a little disingenuous, perhaps. There may be more to all this. Was Aristotle a Correspondence Theorist? The debate continues. Things may be complicated, including in the history of ideas.

It may even be possible to be a poststructural deconstructionist and still think sex is real (Jane Clare Jones comes to mind in this context; sure there are others too). For myself, I suspect such endeavour is ultimately whistling in the dark. (Too much metaphysical baggage leads to a mistaken appreciation of what is signified by the loss of the transcendental signifier, since you ask.) But of course if you are serious you should track it down and argue with it.

Be all that as it may. For those who are trying to get to grips with this from the beginning, as it were, it is important that you approach it with common sense. If a philosopher tells us sex is not real, or that science is just another text with no more factual content than a novel, we know that philosopher is at best mistaken, no matter how she wraps things up in polysyllables and subordinate clauses.

Most of what Judith Butler writes (and, yes, Queen, I have read much of it too, for my sins), is just plain silly. It is not intellectually disreputable to notice this -- or to point it out.

QueenoftheAir · 06/02/2021 16:19

I think it's interesting Jaime that the Mills start their discussion of the subjection of women, by first talking about slavery (they''re writing after 1865).

BlueCatRedCat · 06/02/2021 16:19

That's really kind, CharleyParley , thank you. It does feel like the pattern of seemingly lovely men who change, Jekyll to Hyde style, as soon as you are trapped into a relationship. Society is trapped by organisations like the ACLU's reputation as extreme doers of good and harbingers of justice - to oppose them feels almost unthinkable to anyone who believes themselves to be liberal. And now, it feels like they are re-writing your history, screaming in your face and laughing at your "madness" when you object - and who will believe you over them when you complain?

Yes, Nauticant and QueenofAir it is all those feelings combined. It's misogynist abuse 101.

Having said that, I am very much of the school of, "if it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger", and i can take heart from the feeling that these fuckers are starting to overplay their hand and have thus exposed themselves to a much wider and less credulous audience. And I am happy to have learned everything I have from this discussion board. Have had my mind blown so many times. The post upthread about animal husbandry potentially creating the patriarchy being the latest! So thank you all for such interesting and informative threads. Flowers (Am going to stop hijacking now).

JaimeLeeCurtains · 06/02/2021 16:17

@QueenoftheAir thanks for those very apt passages from Mill and Taylor.

And @BlueCatRedCat, it's all linked - social ideas of the body, power, abuse ... women are being denied their sense of self. It's dislocating.

Thinking about the Mill and Taylor quote (the first one) that @Queen posted above, it sometimes feels like the deal we are socialised into as girls (well, I was, certainly) - be kind, be nice! and you'll be protected! - has been unilaterally subverted.

Now it's be kinder! be nicer! you bitches can't be protected by us if you're not kinder! come on, you can be kinder that that, or we'll burn you!

Of course, no girl or woman could ever be kind enough. It was a cruel illusion. Maybe like @CharlieParley broached, the whole Neolithic 'agricultural revolution' was the origins of a massive Stockholm Syndrome.

QueenoftheAir · 06/02/2021 15:53

No need to apologise BlueCatRedCat I feel like that, when I read some of the gender extremist bollocks.

I don't have the experience of abuse, though - for me it's just frustration at their stupidity & half-informed thoughts and lack of real knowledge.

nauticant · 06/02/2021 15:46

I don't have your background BlueCatRedCat but sometimes after reading this stuff I feel a weariness in my bones and actually start to feel unwell, it's a tension feeling that reminds me of nausea and anxiety. I then have to walk away for that feeling to pass.

CharlieParley · 06/02/2021 15:38

Sorry to hear about your experiences BlueCatRedCat Flowers Unfortunately it's easier to recognise patterns of abuse when you have been at the receiving end of it.

CharlieParley · 06/02/2021 15:36

@BlueCatRedCat

Sorry to have dropped that in there, you are having a far more esoteric and interesting conversation, I had only read the OP when I posted.
No need to apologise. And yes, I do think this is abusive.
BlueCatRedCat · 06/02/2021 15:33

Sorry to have dropped that in there, you are having a far more esoteric and interesting conversation, I had only read the OP when I posted.

BlueCatRedCat · 06/02/2021 15:30

Does anyone else feel like they are being emotionally abused by all this? I grew up in an emotionally abusive household and spent 13 years in an emotionally abusive relationship. I have the same feelings of distress, fear, impotent rage, and the utter headfuck as to why anyone would believe the abusers when their words are such patent, provable lies. Trying to tell the truth is like screaming into space, it feels like nobody can hear you. I have been clear of my abusers for many years now, but I'm starting to get that same feeling of utter dread again whenever I read this stuff, and am told there is nothing to see here by self styled liberals who should be on my side (and me on their's).

NecessaryScene1 · 06/02/2021 15:26

I thin one is informed scholarship; the other is what I'd call "vulgar post-modernism."

Agree. A bit of post-modernism to "take a step back and looking at this afresh" is a good thing.

But you can't forget the actual modernism, with, you know, rationality and material reality and stuff.

This nonsense is just using pure post-modernism as a power play.

CharlieParley · 06/02/2021 15:16

[quote TornadoOfSouls]@QueenoftheAir thanks for your input. It was when I learnt about Early Modern misunderstanding of female biology (surprise that a woman wasn’t a sort of inside out man, that women’s bodies contributed to conception other than as a simple incubator) that the reality that the (white) male is default, the female is ‘other’ really had meaning for me.[/quote]
If you go back further, to the beginnings of agriculture, there's a credible theory that the patriarchy was born from men's emerging understanding that they played a role in women gestating young. Until that point, the general belief did not connect the act of sexual intercourse with women creating life.

(Obviously that's 10 to 15 thousand years ago, and some individuals may well have had an idea before that, but it was animal husbandry and early efforts at breeding animals to maximise or minimise traits that allowed men to understand they had a role to play. And with then needing to protect that role.)

QueenoftheAir · 06/02/2021 14:48

See, I think there's a difference between
debated whether the EU actually existed and that EU membership was a spectrum

and discussing the various ways in which different people are educated, socialised conditioned to view the EU, how that comes about, and what the ideological motivations for promulgating particular (and different) views of the EU are. And what's at stake in differeong uderstandings.

There's a difference between complex enquiries into how we are where we are (in any topic, area, concept) and whether or not that thing exists.

I thin one is informed scholarship; the other is what I'd call "vulgar post-modernism."

It's definitely the latter that the TRAs have got hold of.

NecessaryScene1 · 06/02/2021 13:40

Wonder if it would have been better or worse if rather than debating whether or not we should leave the EU, we had debated whether the EU actually existed and that EU membership was a spectrum.

QueenoftheAir · 06/02/2021 13:36

And it seems to me that it just does not and cannot reach the threshold of providing the groundwork for establishing legal, social and political frameworks and policies - because they'd all just be imagined constructs too, wouldn't they?

I don't actually disagree with either @JaimeLeeCurtains or @9toenails - just pointing out that there is an element of "truth" (whatever that is ...) in some of Butler's starting points. And tat a lot of TRAs & po-mos haven't actually read Gender Trouble (I have ...).

It is the case that humans in part perceive & construct our social world via words & ideas. We all filter 'reality' via our interpretations, emotions, imaginations, reasoning. And discourse has an impact on material reality. Otherwise, how would socialisation into oppression work in total? (I've cut and pasted below John Stuart Mill's explanation of this, which is still pertinent , 150 years later)

But - as you say JaimeLeeCurtains - the social constructionist view doesn't provide the total, or even sufficient grounds for organising the practices & institutions of the material world.

Here's John Stuart Mill & Harriet Taylor Mill, from The Subjection of Women on socialisation:

All causes, social and natural, combine to make it unlikely that women should be collectively rebellious to the power of men. They are so far in a position different from all other subject classes, that their masters require something more from them than actual service. Men do not want solely the obedience of women, they want their sentiments. All men, except the most brutish, desire to have, in the woman most nearly connected with them, not a forced slave but a willing one, not a slave merely, but a favourite.They have therefore put everything in practice to enslave their minds. The masters of all other slaves rely, for maintaining obedience, on fear; either fear of themselves, or religious fears. The masters of women wanted more than simple obedience, and they turned the whole force of education to effect their purpose. All women are brought up from the very earliest years in the belief that their ideal of character is the very opposite to that of men; not self-will, and government by self-control, but submission, and yielding to the control of others. All the moralities tell them that it is the duty of women, and all the current sentimentalities that it is their nature, to live for others; to make complete abnegation of themselves, and to have no life but in their affections. And by their affections are meant the only ones they are allowed to have—those to the men with whom they are connected, or to the children who constitute an additional and indefeasible tie between them and a man. When we put together three things—first, the natural attraction between opposite sexes; secondly, the wife's entire dependence on the husband, every privilege or pleasure she has being either his gift, or depending entirely on his will; and lastly, that the principal object of human pursuit, consideration, and all objects of social ambition, can in general be sought or obtained by her only through him, it would be a miracle if the object of being attractive to men had not become the polar star of feminine education and formation of character

(from the Project Gutenberg version)

And I love this paragraph, where Mill & Taylor point out that we've only ever lived under patriarchy - so its superiority to other ways of running the world is merely theoretical:

The least that can be demanded is, that the question should not be considered as prejudged by existing fact and existing opinion, but open to discussion on its merits, as a question of justice and expediency: the decision on this, as on any of the other social arrangements of mankind, depending on what an enlightened estimate of tendencies and consequences may show to be most advantageous to humanity in general, without distinction of sex. And the discussion must be a real discussion, descending to foundations, and not resting satisfied with vague and general assertions. It will not do, for instance, to assert in general terms, that the experience of mankind has pronounced in favour of the existing system. Experience cannot possibly have decided between two courses, so long as there has only been experience of one. If it be said that the doctrine of the equality of the sexes rests only on theory, it must be remembered that the contrary doctrine also has only theory to rest upon. All that is proved in its favour by direct experience, is that mankind have been able to exist under it, and to attain the degree of improvement and prosperity which we now see; but whether that prosperity has been attained sooner, or is now greater, than it would have been under the other system, experience does not say

andyoldlabour · 06/02/2021 12:57

Here is an article on Y-DNA testing. It is not an invasive procedure, probably similar to the regular drug testing which athletes undergo. As others have pointed out, it only has to be done once in the athlete's life and could become part of the "Biological Passport".
Does anyone recall Lauren Jeska the UK fell runner who tried to murder UK atletics manager Ralph Knibbs, after being asked to do blood tests? Jeska is currently being held at Foston Hall women's prison.

learn.familytreedna.com/test-types/y-chromosome-dna-y-dna-str-test-will-learn/

www.wada-ama.org/en/questions-answers/athlete-biological-passport

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauren_Jeska

OP posts:
JaimeLeeCurtains · 06/02/2021 12:15

Some vague thoughts ... I do 'get' the Butlerian thinking then, I guess. And it seems to me that it just does not and cannot reach the threshold of providing the groundwork for establishing legal, social and political frameworks and policies - because they'd all just be imagined constructs too, wouldn't they?

It's a nonsense argument to replace one set of constructed laws or rules (e.g. sex based) with another set of constructed laws or rules (e.g. gender identity based) on the basis of a philosophy that holds both to be imagined fabrications.

Butler (or Butlerism) is just a useful idiot here.

This sex/gender switch is about very real gynophobia - and I'm certain now that I'm not imagining that.

Thank you for this thread.

9toenails · 06/02/2021 11:45

@JaimeLeeCurtains

So is it remotely plausible to say that Butler and Butlerists argue that humans imagine biological sex into existence, therefore it cannot be fixed or scientifically knowable?

And that those who choose to 'imagine' biological sex as binary are therefore wrong within the conceits parameters of this linguistic / philosophical argument?

Because that to me would be like using quantum theory and Schrodinger's cat to inform, say, sentencing policy in the criminal justice system.

It is not at all implausible to say these people argue that human beings imagine everything into existence, so that nothing is scientifically knowable.

Science is just another social construct, they will tell you.

This is not like using quantum theory and Schrodinger's cat to inform ... sentencing policy. It is much worse than that.

Btw I too thought your earlier post --

I think they are so tangled up in misunderstandings of anthropology that it hurts my brain .

What they have mainly misunderstood is the perfectly reasonable idea that attitudes to and ideas about biological sex are culturally and historically diverse .

To read that as 'biological sex itself is a myth' is clap trap .

-- is spot on. Thanks for that.

merrymouse · 06/02/2021 11:30

@JaimeLeeCurtains

So is it remotely plausible to say that Butler and Butlerists argue that humans imagine biological sex into existence, therefore it cannot be fixed or scientifically knowable?

And that those who choose to 'imagine' biological sex as binary are therefore wrong within the conceits parameters of this linguistic / philosophical argument?

Because that to me would be like using quantum theory and Schrodinger's cat to inform, say, sentencing policy in the criminal justice system.

Yes, I think this is a fair summary of the situation.