AIBU to think there’s benefits to communal changing rooms

Polava, I see that as the opposite of conforming to a group. The woman was freed from the need to conform to an unrealistic standard by seeing there was no 'standard'- people come in all shapes and sizes.

I'm not oppose to joining groups but it can often become a gang mentality and seek to oppose other sectors in society. Then it can be a numbers game threat " We will take ourselves somewhere else - to your loss."
I think Stonewall may have outplayed them on that and they don't like it.

Look at the way society is being kept apart now.
How long before all groups are completely pulled apart.
As for any real reason for doing it - will never be admitted.

As somebody who identifies as 'individual' it won't be my loss.

And don't get me started on those who like to attack and then blame it on a personality disorder.

I'm a bit late to this, but one of my close friends ascribes her recovery from an eating disorder that had plagued her throughout her teens and twenties to going to live in a country where it was commonplace for all women to go to the ladies' sessions at the local hammam.

She said, for the first time, she was in an environment where she didn't feel judged for her body shape, and she saw just what everyone else looked like - - what was "normal", if you like, at lots of different ages.

Quick question. I won't derail.

Are there any trans who don't oppose to what Alison Bailey is doing with the LGB alliance?
Your input could be useful.

I'm guessing there is opposition for reasons of exclusion.
The LGBT alliance will still exist.

Guards and CCTV outside then?

Businesses don't really want to employ any more people than they have to.
Unless these things are enforced in law.

This is not logical, because I am definitely not totally naked when trying clothes on, (when I am at points when changing at the pool,) but nonetheless, if I don't have a private cubicle I won't be trying things on and probably won't be buying.

It's completely logical - the potentially embarrassing part of buying new clothes is that you have no idea how they will look or whether they will fit.

many smaller gyms/pools have communal changing because if they changed to cubicles only, they could only have 4 or 5 people in at once.

This is my experience. You could quite easily get a couple of dozen of women all finishing a class at the same time and heading off to change/shower.

Should be called PeoplesNet really then.

The Website name is a well known brand though.

I grew up swimming a lot, and I still swim often, lockdown permitting. The pool I grew up with had single sex communal changing rooms and I think it probably was a good thing to see a range of bodies. Swimming cossies may not hide everything, but they still do smooth things out. It was more comfortable than the changing rooms and showers at school, which I think was mostly down to space - a full class of girls in a smaller school changing room was crowded.

Where I swim now, we have a changing village with cubicles - singles, doubles and family cubicles. I imagine this makes the use of space far more efficient than having two large, single sex areas. There are also communal changing rooms by the large pool, which is mostly used by swimming clubs (and possibly schools; I don't swim when they do.) Showers are poolside, but there are some cubicled showers. Most other pools I've been to in recent years, whether public or hotel, have had communal, single sex changing. I don't mind whether it's cubicles or communal - I've usually had space to be a bit spread out as I change, which is fine. Most people ignore everyone else except for questions about how do these lockers actually work, then?

I don't mind changing on the beach, either, but I usually go later in the day when the worst of the crowds have gone, and I am more concerned with the wind and avoiding getting sand in my pants than anything else.

Weirdly, while I'm fine with being naked apart from a towel with moments where I swap between towel and cossie where I'm possibly completely naked, in a swimming pool changing room, the thought of shared changing for clothes shopping horrifies me. This is not logical, because I am definitely not totally naked when trying clothes on, (when I am at points when changing at the pool,) but nonetheless, if I don't have a private cubicle I won't be trying things on and probably won't be buying.

I assume that for leisure centres etc making decisions about all this, there's a large economic factor. Cubicles take up more space overall, but you don't need separate changing rooms, only separate showers/loos if you have a changing village. There is presumably a certain area where it becomes more cost-effective and you can cater for more users in that space if you go one or the other - many smaller gyms/pools have communal changing because if they changed to cubicles only, they could only have 4 or 5 people in at once.

Wotapolava from what I understand, this board used to be known as Feminism and Women's Rights.

It's been Feminist Chat for as long as I've been here, and I agree that refs to FWR are confusing.

Struggling with acronyms.
I don't know what fwr is.
It took me 4 days to work out what AIBU was.
As for the abbreviations used for describing partners, I thought loads of women on here were dating the same guy.

It's just as well there aren't any toilets in here!

There aren't any women who want to do their hair and make up in front of random men, either.

Datun, I agree, and I can't imagine most men would particularly welcome the experience either. There are always lots of angry letters to the Metro written by men who are annoyed by women doing their make-up on the Tube. They consider it something women should do in private.

I wouldn't go that far, but I would prefer not to do my hair and make-up in front of random blokes if I had the choice.

I don't know how men would react to a man putting on make-up on the men's changing room.

I fully agree. I am from a nordic country and growing up the showers at the swimming pool were communal, as were saunas (women only of course).

SorryPleaseTryAgain

How would these women feel about these single-sex spaces becoming unisex?

If they were to feel uncomfortable, do you think it would be acceptable to change the entire culture of the country to have cubicle-only changing areas and private saunas (or swimsuit-only saunas)? How do you think that would go down?

These questions hadn't really occurred to me before.

In my gym, a lot of women choose to do their hair and make up while dressed only in their underwear. I'm not sure why (def not my choice). I assume for practical reasons, like not getting water or make-up on their clothes. I suppose if the area were unisex, many of them would opt to get fully dressed first. They might consider that to be an inconvenience.

There aren't any women who want to do their hair and make up in front of random men, either.

They wanted trans people gone and a lot of the campaigning was about things like getting rid of trans healthcare to prevent transition. Those people are still about and many of them like Sheila Jeffries are at the heart of the gender critical movement.

Nice bit of deflection & misreading there.

Never forget that for many people this isn't really about single sex spaces it's about morally mandating transsexuality out of existence

It's really not. Not everything is about transpeople.

It's about women's and girls' rights:

• which are legally established by UK law; *to establish their own strong boundaries;

While women & girls live in a culture based on the routine normalisation of child sexual abuse, rape, and the sexualisation of female bodies, without our consent then women and girls must be clear about their rights and boundaries out of necessity.

I fully agree. I am from a nordic country and growing up the showers at the swimming pool were communal, as were saunas (women only of course). I remember sitting in saunas with naked women of all ages, seeing so many natural bushes, stretch marks, ageing and dropping bodies, tampon strings etc and I think it was very good in terms of normalising what women's bodies really look like. Of course the culture in the UK around nakedness is completely different, and I respect that. In the nordics though this is very non sexual and not creepy.

I also sometimes go to a local lido here in London which happens to have a communal changing room and optional cubicles. Again, many women, and especially older women, seem to be very comfortable getting completely naked in the changing rooms, which I find liberating and a reminder that actually my body looks ni different from anyone else's, despite what instagram tells me.

JJ, I have given a few reasons as to why redeveloping existing gyms so that the changing areas are entirely made up of cubicles may have a negative impact on the people who already use those gyms in terms of cost and convenience.

My suggestion is to have a few cubicles installed in a gender-neutral area, perhaps with an enclosed shower, so that those who feel unable to use the communal changing rooms for any reason can use those ones instead.

Do you feel that that is an acceptable compromise? Does it have to be a redesign of the entire existing set-up?

Also, I'm just trying to think how you would redesign a gym changing room which also need showering facilities. The gyms I've been to do have separate cubicles for showers (which normally have gaps below and above doors that don't lock) but you still have to walk there from the main changing area - usually in just a towel. Many women would feel uncomfortable walking from the changing cubicle to the shower area in nothing but a towel in a unisex area. At busy times, I've often had to wait for a shower to become available.

So out of curiosity, what is the best way to solve this issue? I suppose all cubicles could be designed with an enclosed shower, but that would take up even more space in the changing area, meaning that you lose more space from the gym itself.

Honestly, I think shops should all have cubicles. Swimming pools and local leisure centres that cater to families should probably have a mix of different sorts of facilities. City gyms that mainly cater to working professionals on a tight schedule (trying to fit in a class before work or on a lunch break) may have different requirements again. In those gyms, I do think there are some benefits to communal changing areas, mainly for cost and efficiency. (Although I do see the benefits of communal changing areas for other reasons, although clearly this is something that is hotly contested on this board!)

In my gym, a lot of women choose to do their hair and make up while dressed only in their underwear. I'm not sure why (def not my choice). I assume for practical reasons, like not getting water or make-up on their clothes. I suppose if the area were unisex, many of them would opt to get fully dressed first. They might consider that to be an inconvenience.

I think you're right to want to counter the world of photoshop and filters but I see women every day who aren't shaped like a Victoria Secret model by walking around places like the supermarket. (Is it a sign of my age that idgaf about how I look compared to other women?)

Oh and won't use one in the gym either - people take photos in there, either of themselves or of other people, neither of which I consider acceptable where other people may be naked in the background

There was a case in the last couple of years where a Playboy model in the US took a selfie in a gym changing room in such a way that she could bodyshame the elderly woman in the background.

I would fear that communal changing rooms would exclude some modest women like the religious from swimming etc as they couldn't guarantee that a person with a penis wasn't in their presence. I know that in theory the space would be for women but we've seen many big businesses cave in to pressure for unisex cubicles so I wouldn't be confident that it would remain single sex.

I wouldn't use a communal changing room in a shop in 2021.
Lots of people take selfies while trying on stuff and I wouldn't want to end up in their background in my knickers because or something. I'd then have to ask the person to delete the image from the phone and deleted items folder so I was sure it was gone. If a woman refuses to delete the pic then what?

The vast majority of trans people would not use a communal changing room, the last thing we want is people gawping at our bodies. That's why barely anyone has ever actually seen a trans women in a communal space. Communal changing rooms mean trans people don't feel comfortable going swimming, neither can many people from minority religions or many women if this thread is anything to go by. Why should some people's desire to be naked around other people supercede the right of all those other people to use that service. Go to a nudist beach if that's what you want FFS.

Too bad jj. You don't get to eliminate an entire concept, because it doesn't fit your agenda. It's a female space, just like any other female space. For females.

There is absolutely no difference between it and any other female space, apart from the fact that shows up your agenda.