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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Schools and trans pupils changing their name - who decides?

38 replies

requiredwriting · 28/01/2021 17:41

Hello, this is a personal question but I know that you lot will know.

We have entered into Gender Hell and our daughter is now non-binary. She emailed all her teachers to ask to change her name and pronouns, and they did. Before they told us, or she told us.

For about the last week I have accepted this, and now that the dust has settled, I am furious. What are the guidelines on this, does anyone know? I've looked and I can't find any at all. I need to know before I set their collective arses on fire.

For obvious reasons I have name changed, but have been around here before, on and off.

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MondayYogurt · 29/01/2021 12:42

@gardenbird48

Just as a heads up, this thread has come to the attention of the monitors on Twitter and has been screenshot and is attracting comments - just so you remember to be extra safe on anonymity.
Then I shall use this as an opportunity to say Detrans Lives Matter Detrans Journeys Are Valid
gardenbird48 · 29/01/2021 11:50

Just as a heads up, this thread has come to the attention of the monitors on Twitter and has been screenshot and is attracting comments - just so you remember to be extra safe on anonymity.

persistentwoman · 29/01/2021 11:28

requiredwriting The Cornwall guidelines are marginally better than most of the others - there is evidence that educators were involved and it at times recognise conflicts. BUT, any advice that undermines basic safeguarding principles by advising driving a wedge between a child and their parents and keeping secrets from parents is toxic and frankly all the professionals involved should hang their heads in shame. The Dfe SRE guidance is explicit that safeguarding must always be upheld.
If schools don't share critical information with parents about their children then parents are not in a position to support or protect their children. I've been involved in a serious case review after the death of a child where a teacher decided to keep a child's conversation secret from parents and the child subsequently killed herself so maybe I'm more aware than others of terrible consequences when professionals act in this way. The trouble is that schools (along with everyone else) have become deskilled and are too scared of being called transphobic to engage in critical thinking about this.

sashagabadon · 29/01/2021 11:09

I have just listened to an audiobook on this exact subject. Abigail Shrier the transgender craze affecting our daughters. It is well researched and opened my eyes. It is American but as applies to us here too. It might help you clarify your thoughts and what to say to the school.

requiredwriting · 29/01/2021 11:07

@Manderleyagain

"If she is 'gender critical non binary' then I can see her logic in a way. If it means she understands that being female just is what it is - and that's not going to change - then 'non binary' is new terminology for an older thing. "

I agree. The problem is that this immediately comes under the trans umbrella, and the school start talking about their "journey" and it all gets blurred. Plus all the advice for schools is about trans, not non-binary and I think we need clarity.

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Manderleyagain · 29/01/2021 10:54

Threads by other parents, soliciting advice from others in similar situations on here will be useful. There was one recently. Taking the focus completely off gender issues seems to be common advice, and encouraging anything that makes the body seem useful or powerful. Singing, rock climbing, whatever.

If it wasn't for the medical pathway, and the issues over changing rooms etc that this all opens up, I don't think all the new 'genders' would be that different from previous generations identity exploring like goths etc. Pronouns, or calling yourself non binary, in themselves don't have to be a problem, if the person reliases that this doesn't stop them actually being female. These are labels and teens play with labels. Obviously it indicates underlying worries that you are finding, but these can be addressed independently of whether she is calling herself non binary or whatever.

If she is 'gender critical non binary' then I can see her logic in a way. If it means she understands that being female just is what it is - and that's not going to change - then 'non binary' is new terminology for an older thing.

However, a child we know was at first 'gender fluid' then came out as a trans boy, and it worries me that in the current climate this is a step towards medicalisation. If that spectre was removed we could just let them get on with it I feel.

requiredwriting · 29/01/2021 10:04

Right, I'm back although I don't know that I have much sense to share.

@bonbonours Our daughter is 14 as well. From reading other threads on here, Yr9 seems the peak stage for this to happen. What was the social contagion for her? Here, interestingly, it seems to be in school rather than the internet, as we've mostly peeled her off her phone without complaint, but half the class showed up at the online Pride group this week.

@persistentwoman My next job is to see whether the Cornwall guidelines still meet the DofE recommendations now. I suspect not. If anyone knows any links or guidance, that would be really helpful.

@MondayYogurt and everyone else. Yes, basically. I'm at a very early stage of understanding - assimilating lots of information and putting it together logically for non specialists is basically my job and so I am dealing with this via the means of research. But there do seem to be a number of factors which predispose to rapid onset gender issues in teenage girls and a big bust is definitely one of them. Also mentioned in despatches are non-neurotypical (she has ADHD, rather than the ASD which is extremely common), and being gifted, which DD also is. So in short, she feels really different, and this is a convenient outlet.

I think this desire to get out of the pressures of gender and sex is nothing new. I was a fat goth at 16 - and felt different for a whole host of other reasons including being a southerner in Manchester and arriving at a new school in Yr 10 with 4 GCSEs already. I didn't have a hope. But what I observed even then was that female goths were either fat girls who didn't want to be judged by conventional standards, or were extremely pretty and frightened by their attractiveness.

Meanwhile my friend at university was very attractive and spent the second year basically dressed as non-binary in loose jeans, leather jacket, wooly hat, spiked short hair. Just like any non-binary girl now, but without the language to call it that. She also had a pair of dungarees, which were pale brown and made out of sweatshirt fabric, with a crotch which hung down to her knees. Everyone else couldn't understand why she wore it; I knew exactly why, because she wanted people to see her mind (we were at Cambridge fwiw).

So I do understand. But I don't think - as you've said - that any of this is feminist. Go and be who you are but as a woman. But then can you change the prison of gender when you are 14, on your own?

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hallouminatus · 29/01/2021 08:54

fakenina:
The school cant change her entry on their MIS system (database) untill she has a medical diagnosis.

TeaAndHobnob
As there's only one option for sex (or gender as all our systems insist on calling it) that would stay the same unless there was a legal change.

Sadly, both these statement appear to be incorrect according to DfE guidance.

Gender should be self-declared and recorded according to the wishes of the parent and / or pupil.

Individuals are free to change the way their gender is recorded. There is no requirement from the department for any legal change or gender recognition certificate and it remains open for the school to amend the gender of any pupil, within their own MIS, at any time.

The and / or in the first sentence might be taken to imply that parental consent isn't needed to change the recorded gender (and hence pronoun use) but I'm sure that interpretation of this will vary between schools.

requiredwriting · 28/01/2021 22:58

Thank you everyone, you all make it a bit less lonely.

@ArabellaScott thanks for the link; we are in touch with them.

There’s so much to say but I need to try and relax as my sleep is really suffering, but will come back tomorrow

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TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 28/01/2021 22:09

It is almost like looking for a suit of armour, it sounds like, to protect against society's expectations/demands.

I think that sounds like a very good analogy, Arabella.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 28/01/2021 22:07

@MondayYogurt

Listening to the personal stories of detrans women there is quite often a great discomfort with the sexualisation of being a girl becoming a woman. They mention looking back now and wondering why no one told them the sexualisation and abuse from men was unacceptable and that they didn't have to pretend it was OK or ignore it. Becoming trans was their way of going back to a non-sexual state. So I would suggest opening up a dialogue about boundaries and seeing if she has had any negative experiences with male attention.
Yes to this.
ArabellaScott · 28/01/2021 22:07

That sounds really hard, OP.

www.bayswatersupport.org.uk/

Is a support group that might be helpful.

gender-critical non-binary - I can almost see the logic of this - it's an attempt to escape gender, yes. Hard as it might seem, though, we can't escape sex. The problem is not one's body or sex, the problem is certain behaviours or societal attitudes. We have to learn how to avoid, mitigate, fight or navigate them, and it's hard.

I wonder if exploring assertion might be helpful, does your daughter feel she has bodily autonomy, can exercise, state and protect her boundaries effectively?

It is almost like looking for a suit of armour, it sounds like, to protect against society's expectations/demands. I really can empathise.

I find this site my go-to for parenting: www.ahaparenting.com/ages-stages/teenagers

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 28/01/2021 22:06

She has a large bust, so feels that she is automatically catapulted into a set of expectations that she doesn't want to meet. She wants a way out of that.

That’s actually made me really sad. I do understand. What a horrible, toxic world we live in that makes girls and young women feel like this (I know it’s common).

Sorry. It’s all so shite. Agree with what you say, bonbonours, so sorry you’re struggling with this too.

I just wish there was another way to protect and raise up these girls, so they don’t fall for the propaganda that they can somehow opt out of being female, and that that’s a desirable thing to do. But I know it’s a huge, huge battle in this world full of extreme porn, Instagram perfection, and hideously rigid “gender” stereotypes. Just misogyny every way you look.

MondayYogurt · 28/01/2021 21:53

Listening to the personal stories of detrans women there is quite often a great discomfort with the sexualisation of being a girl becoming a woman. They mention looking back now and wondering why no one told them the sexualisation and abuse from men was unacceptable and that they didn't have to pretend it was OK or ignore it. Becoming trans was their way of going back to a non-sexual state.
So I would suggest opening up a dialogue about boundaries and seeing if she has had any negative experiences with male attention.

persistentwoman · 28/01/2021 21:35

Sadly requiredwriting the Cornwall guidelines are as anti parents as the others. They state this about parents:
A parent or guardian may not always be the most supportive
or appropriate person to assist the young person through
transitioning. It may not be necessary for a parent or guardian
to provide permission for a Trans pupil or student to take
steps to transition as there may be issues raised of Fraser
competence if parents will not consent
.
A shocking undermining of safeguarding and family life.

Your instinct about focusing on other issues at present is spot on. For so many children who get caught up in this issue, it becomes overwhelming - to the detriment of all the other aspects of their lives. The more you can do (and especially hard I know at the present) to enable activities, discussions, friendships that focus on all the normal healthy activities that build a child's resilience, the better. Setting up cooking together, playing games, family meals and occasions etc despite the limitations of lock down.
You're also so right about her wanting a way out of impending womanhood with all the challenges that poses for teenage girls in this porn soaked world.

bonbonours · 28/01/2021 21:19

I totally agree @requiredwriting I think it is a lot to do with not liking the expectations placed on her as a teenage girl, not liking unwanted male attention, and not wanting to have to try to compete with the girls who everyone fancies. So by saying she is non-binary, and covering up her female body she is trying to escape.

bonbonours · 28/01/2021 21:14

Obviously the school are not talking about changing the name officially but putting it down as 'known as' - just like when they go to infants you can put on the form for example "Samuel, known as Sam". Our school said they wouldn't even do that unless parents had been consulted.

There is definitely social contagion and a trend with this issue but my daughter refuses to believe it. She's 14.

requiredwriting · 28/01/2021 21:05

I do feel it is anti-feminist, but can't marshall the arguments right now.

We are slightly avoiding the issue with her for now, and trying to focus on other stuff. I want to fix school first.

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requiredwriting · 28/01/2021 21:04

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

Interesting point. Please do challenge me on anything you like, I am struggling to think straight.

I think it's the other way round. She has a large bust, so feels that she is automatically catapulted into a set of expectations that she doesn't want to meet. She wants a way out of that.

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TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 28/01/2021 20:58

The interesting difficulty is that - at the moment - she is gender-critical non-binary. She knows that sex cannot change but wants to break out of gender expectations.

No such thing as gender-critical non-binary IMO, much as she may want to believe that’s what she is.

Could you gently point out to her that she is actually reinforcing and colluding with those gender expectations by saying that she accepts those limitations for girls, and has to be non-binary to escape them?

What is is concretely that she feels she can do/be as NB that she can’t as a girl?

requiredwriting · 28/01/2021 20:34

Thanks everyone, that's all very helpful. I will work my way through this.

@Beamur I know that they have taken on the Cornwall guidelines, which I've had a look through and are not awful, if a bit vague (although they approve binding, which I don't like). They, however, say nothing at all about this situation, so lord knows.

The interesting difficulty is that - at the moment - she is gender-critical non-binary. She knows that sex cannot change but wants to break out of gender expectations.

The school have not had much experience of this, but I think social contagion is a part of it as there is a Yr 9 outbreak right now. I don't think the internet is, at present, playing much part in this.

I will go through all the links, and try to find as much evidence as I can for school.

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Manderleyagain · 28/01/2021 20:24

I think it's worth looking at the statements made by liz truss as a pp says. At my daughter's school a child had got at least one teacher to use new name and pronoun, but then this was reversed. My daughter said that it was because parents had not given formal permission. The timing coincided with liz truss's statements, so I wondered if that caused the school to reverse ferret. This is a stonewall champion school. Sorry its v circumstantial.

donquixotedelamancha · 28/01/2021 20:04

I'm a teacher with some experience of this, but not from the legal/admin side, so take with a pinch of salt.

My understanding is that your DD can change her known by name from about 15.5 years old, though it's unusual to do so without speaking to parents.

I would point out to the school that your daughter has no diagnosis of gender dysphoria and that they have no right to subject her to medical treatment without permission. I'd keep it positive but stress the harm that amateur intervention can cause.

I'm sure (despite the piles of drivel out there aimed at schools) you will find some official guidance pointing out the risks of exacerbating gender dysphoria if social transition is attempted without it being part of planned treatment.

I would be expecting name and pronouns restored. And another vote for contacting transgender trend.

You need to speak to your DD about how much you accept her. I would stress that she can be as non-binary as she likes and talk about the problems with gender stereotypes- avoid it becoming a battle.

persistentwoman · 28/01/2021 19:46

Hope by now you've found Transgender Trend and Safe Schools Alliance UK and have got some support from the wise women there OP?
This is (yet another) growing scandal where schools are unwittingly enabling children to become alienated from their parents. Whenever a child discloses something 'critical' the first thing you do is assess for safeguarding, legality, confidentiality and what support the child has. Teachers used to be adept at working through how to work with parents - even with challenging safeguarding issues.
Unfortunately since adult led lobby groups with no knowledge of safeguarding or children have been enabled to gaslight schools with legally incorrect, child unfriendly practices that often undermine safeguarding, adults in schools have become de skilled in following the basic principles that keep children safe.
There are a number of parents who have considered legal action against schools for this behaviour. Sadly (but quite rightly) they are all inhibited because it puts their vulnerable child in the spotlight and the welfare of their child is their paramount concern.

TeaAndHobnob · 28/01/2021 19:20

[quote requiredwriting]@TeaAndHobnob What about pronouns, would you change that as well?

I am not saying it is wrong at all, just trying to get my head round what has happened.[/quote]
As there's only one option for sex (or gender as all our systems insist on calling it Confused ) that would stay the same unless there was a legal change.

But the school I work in is not the kind of school where anything like this would be able to be kept from parents - if roberta was now robert at school, everyone in the community would know in about five seconds.

I get the impression it's not so much the school have done this, but the lack of discussion & not keeping you informed?

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