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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NEW: Grounds in support of intervention in the Bell v Tavistock JR appeal published

238 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 26/01/2021 09:53

twitter.com/RadFemLawyer/status/1354002497753538562?s=19

This is going to fascinating to follow.

GIRES, Stonewall, Brooks and the Endocrine society are intervening.

OP posts:
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merrymouse · 29/01/2021 12:39

Mime!

merrymouse · 29/01/2021 12:39

Mime - can they use mine? Grin

MichelleofzeResistance · 29/01/2021 12:34

Yes I'm very interested to know how intervening looks when there's no oral evidence or new evidence permitted? Is new views and explanations of the evidence 'new' evidence? I thought this appeal had to be demonstrating that the judges made an error somewhere ie a point of law was wrong? Legal brains, would someone kind please explain how this works for laypeople?

merrymouse · 29/01/2021 12:29

The process is difficult to understand isn’t it - I could understand how a lawyer might be able to argue that the original judgement or analysis of Gillick was wrong - but these aren’t lawyers.

OvaHere · 29/01/2021 12:24

Hannah Barnes
@hannahsbee
·
7m
None of the new interveners will be allowed to make oral submissions nor submit any fresh evidence. The court made the point that all of these parties could have sought permission to intervene in the original case, and that this was an appeal – not a fresh hearing. 5/

So what are they going to be arguing if no fresh evidence is allowed? Will it all be focused on Gillick?

Manderleyagain · 29/01/2021 12:22

*submitting

Manderleyagain · 29/01/2021 12:21

Newsnight journalist's thread

mobile.twitter.com/hannahsbee/status/1355127683491917834

Liberty and bma might be applying to intervene.

Not sure how these ppl will be able to intervene without sitting new evidence. Strange. Hopefully someone will explain.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 29/01/2021 12:16

So, tl;dr. @Genderintell, @BrookCharity and @TheEndoSociety have been given permission to intervene. As have various others including UCLH and Leeds, Transgender Trend, and the aforementioned Dr Bell.

From the Fox killer^

Interesting that Stonewall not allowed...

OP posts:
highame · 29/01/2021 10:54

That's was my thinking too. Thanks

Manderleyagain · 29/01/2021 10:25

Yes that's right. RadFemLawyer tweeted it today. Short hearing today, she exkevts that they will be allowed to intervene.

highame · 29/01/2021 08:57

I have a note that today is when the Court of Appeal with consider the Interveners, am I correct?

MoleSmokes · 29/01/2021 07:32

Interesting article by Miranda Yardley from 2018

"The Science of Gender: what influences gender development and gender dysphoria"

Extracts

"With thanks to Bob Withers for the original work dated 23 October 2018. I have taken Bob’s words unabridged and added my comments in italics. This was a write-up of The 2018 European Society for Paediatric Endocrinology (ESPE) Science Symposium on 18-19 October 2018 at The Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust entitled ‘The Science of Gender: Evidence for what influences gender development and gender dysphoria and what are the respective influences of nature and nurture’. "

"This conference was funded by Pfizer pharmaceuticals"

"Professor Gary Butler of UCLH and the Tavistock GIDS introduced proceedings. He remarked that no chromosomal, hormonal, or other physical anomalies had been detected in the clinical population using the GIDS, despite initially screening for these.

Dr Polly Carmichael, head of the GIDS and a clinical psychologist, went on to give the first talk. It concerned the differences and similarities between gender dysphoria and sex development disorders. Surprisingly, given her profession and the stated purpose of the conference, Polly did not mention psychological factors influencing gender development. Instead she emphasised genetic, biological and social elements. When questioned about this omission she described it as a ‘Freudian slip’. The omission is surprising given the Tavistock’s position as a leading psychoanalytic clinic and the preoccupation with identity development in psychoanalysis. Freud’s (1917) Mourning and melancholia, Winnicott’s (1967) ‘mirroring’ and the Boston Change Process Study Group’s recent (2010) work on the role of implicit relational knowing in the construction of the inner world are all deeply concerned with the development of identity.

Unfortunately, this reluctance to address psychological factors proved to be a feature of the conference. There was not a single talk on the role of psychological factors in the aetiology of gender dysphoria or gender identity. But Professor Riittakerttu Kaltiala-Heino, an adolescent psychiatrist from Tampere Finland, did acknowledged the importance of a psychodynamic perspective. She spoke about her clinical experiences- including her work with ‘adolescent onset gender dysphoria’, sometimes known as ‘Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria (ROGD)’. She made several important points, observing for instance that in Finland, as elsewhere, psychological co-morbidities remain largely untreated because psychotherapists wrongly believe that only gender identity specialists should treat GD patients. In her experience, such co-morbidities are likely to persist if they are not addressed psychologically before medical treatment. Interestingly she also mentioned that several of her patients seemed to share an identity. Many of the young FtMs in her care claimed to have spent large parts of their childhood alone in the woods fantasising about being a male wolf for instance. She acknowledged privately that this was probably due to social contagion via the internet as people were encouraged to provide the sort of history that would facilitate their medical transition."

See more at:
mirandayardley.com/en/the-science-of-gender-what-influences-gender-development-and-gender-dysphoria/

RedToothBrush · 28/01/2021 22:18

www.channel4.com/news/children-have-been-very-seriously-damaged-by-nhs-gender-clinic-says-former-tavistock-staff-governor
‘Children have been very seriously damaged’ by NHS gender clinic, says former Tavistock staff governor

Interview with Dr David Bell by C4 News

Manderleyagain · 28/01/2021 20:56

Thank you oldcrone and rozwatching for the background on Spack. It's horrendous how areas of medicine can be influenced an influencial doctors opinion rather than a sound evidence base. It's happened elsewhere but this is something else - unreal. If the Endocrine Society's evidence displays the same ideas regarding children's capacity to consent and its place in treatment decisions, then I think we can be fairly sure the court of appeal will not be impressed.

ChattyLion · 28/01/2021 15:26

It is extremely concerning that the RCOG have had the poor judgement and presumably inaccurate legal advice (or have misunderstood the legal position presented to them?) to this extent. RCOG set professional guidance for women’s sexual and reproductive health doctors. These are separate legal and clinical issues to the Bell case area of work. So you’d hope eg RCOG provide good guidance for the reproductive and sexual healthcare of female people who identify as trans and non binary. That subset of biological women given the interventions they may receive could well need specific guidance.

But Gillick in RCOG context isn’t relevant to the questions from Bell. Bell does not trump Gilick or compromise Gillick.

gardenbird48 · 28/01/2021 15:23

So the RCOG has a person in their Women’s Network that has the purpose of discussing women’s ob/gyn experiences and needs and shaping policy who wasn’t born female and has literally no lived experience of any ob/gyn issues?? Oh, and happens to be employed by Stonewall...

merrymouse · 28/01/2021 14:47

This is also interesting on the 'numerous cases' that have apparently been brought this year to undermine access.

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1354784505123524611

If the policy of the RCOG is to always jump in feet first without checking, it's not clear how helpful their intervention is.

persistentwoman · 28/01/2021 14:14

Some of her other info about their women's network may go some way to explain their unusual take on court judgements about child safety.

Whatwouldscullydo · 28/01/2021 14:08

My that is interesting.

So typical though. Someone jumps in desperate fir the public pat on the back then does the research after.

Its embarrassing.

Akot of tweets suddenly get deleted or accounts made private

persistentwoman · 28/01/2021 14:02

@Whatwouldscullydo

What have they said persist ?
Maya explains it here Scully : twitter.com/MForstater/status/1354594516624437248

And she has some other fascinating information.

Whatwouldscullydo · 28/01/2021 13:50

What have they said persist ?

persistentwoman · 28/01/2021 13:48

Looks as if the RCOG is reverse ferreting from their initial support for the interveners. That thread is well worth a look for the other unsurprising information revealed about policy capture there - as usual to the detriment of women.

Tibtom · 28/01/2021 13:26

Why are an American lobby group promoting drugs intervening in a British court case about whether children can consent to treatment?

Because the medical insurance industry will be watching closely and may decide to stop funding.

RozWatching · 28/01/2021 11:57

[quote OvaHere]Apols if this was already posted. A thread from Maya about the co-opting of the RCOG and their statement about Gillick.

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1354594516624437248[/quote]
That is very interesting. There is a bit of a pattern emerging in the way all these orgs are being co-opted as mouthpieces.

RozWatching · 28/01/2021 11:42

"Trouble fitting in." In his TED talk, he talks about "normal" breast size and says that the children he treated looked "beautiful, normal".
He seems to be very keen on looks and lacking in understanding of the emotional turmoil of female puberty in particular.