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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What can we do?

163 replies

BrandineDelRoy · 26/01/2021 02:47

I felt empowered tonight (by some wine) to challenge what Biden's done this week. I (in the US) approached two law school friends, one former boyfriend, my best friend from high school, and my sister in law on the trans women in sport issue.

None of them seemed to know what I was talking about. And when I tried to explain it, they didn't care because TW are so few.

How can we fight this?

OP posts:
MichelleofzeResistance · 27/01/2021 15:38

Also worth noticing that often the historical and cultural expressions of gender for females going beyond patriarchal norms were to escape the the limits or dangers of being stuck in a biologically female body.

Not in the name of self expression.

And yet many of those women who pushed the boundaries of those limits placed on biologically female and changed the restrictions for other women are now being grabbed by the trans movement as examples of not being women who showed that people with female bodies can be and do anything - but that those women were actually men.

As if only men do exciting, interesting, challenging things, and any woman trying it stops being a woman.

Female becomes a kind of chuck it bucket, doesn't it? And females are supposed to believe this is a great, non sexist thing, that isn't rooted entirely in sex based thinking and doesn't harm them.

MaudTheInvincible · 27/01/2021 15:35

You can define yourself how you like.

Leave me alone. To push your power to redefine me to your own better interests is based on your knowledge that you have that power over females, and your expectation of being a superior voice that females really ought to obey. It's fundamentally sexist, oppressive and unacceptable.

Absolutely on the nail!

Kit19 · 27/01/2021 15:32

as a childless woman I am beyond fed up with TRA weaponising my childless status as some kind of gotcha to suggest Im not like other woman

I cant have children because after ectopic pregnancies - my biological female equipment doesnt work as it should. My ability to not get pregnant has dominated a fair chunk of my life and now Im menopausal my biology dominates that too. It is all about the biology.

I have everything in common with other women because of my biology whether they are mothers or not

OldCrone · 27/01/2021 15:22

there are ample historical and cultural expressions of gender which go beyond the western patriarchal norms of men acting as men and women acting as women.

You really are missing the point here jj.

There is an enormous difference between people being gender non-conforming and people declaring that because they don't conform to gender norms therefore they are the opposite sex.

Surely you must understand that after all the time you've spent on here.

TheCoolNightAirLikeShalimar2 · 27/01/2021 15:00

It's fundamentally sexist, oppressive and unacceptable.

Hear, fucking hear!

TheCoolNightAirLikeShalimar2 · 27/01/2021 14:59

Actually no links required as CharleyParley has given an honest account of what you were trying to allude to.

Thanks anyway.

MichelleofzeResistance · 27/01/2021 14:58

The whole point of this ceaseless trying to talk femalehood and female experience and female language and the concept of being a woman out of existence is by males, for males, solely so that they can dissolve it far enough to be able to claim it.

The answer is no.

You can define yourself how you like.

Leave me alone. To push your power to redefine me to your own better interests is based on your knowledge that you have that power over females, and your expectation of being a superior voice that females really ought to obey. It's fundamentally sexist, oppressive and unacceptable.

TheCoolNightAirLikeShalimar2 · 27/01/2021 14:55

Feminists from Firestone to Dworkin to Wittig to Butler have written widely about how under patriarchy a woman is a socially constructed role as well as a physical reality.

Links, please.

gardenbird48 · 27/01/2021 14:48

I don't disagree that no-one born male can fully understand the discrimination women go through relating to child birth (and other physical aspects), but that experience is not univeral to all women - roughly around 25% of women in the UK never have children - some women can't, many don't want to - I don't think this makes them imperfect women

You’ve missed the point again. Women are discriminated against because they are of the sex that CAN have babies. So much so that asking about a candidate’s intention to have children was outlawed.

As I said earlier, this discrimination still happens irl - I have spoken to people who run businesses and have views on employing women of a certain age, not because they are horrid people but because the business impact can be huge.
Women CANNOT identify out of this discrimination- it is there and entirely linked to their sex.

You mention discrimination because of a female name but in that case, there might be an initial hesitation if someone thinks you’re female but then either the reality becomes obvious or the person involved has the option to reveal the truth. It isn’t right to present as a member of a discriminated against group and claim benefits and protections available to them - look at Benjamin Button (was it him? Identified as black to take up a conference place reserved for bjack people?).

Trans people can obviously experience discrimination on the grounds of Gender Reassignment which is also illegal but that is a very different situation.

OldCrone · 27/01/2021 14:44

I suspect a range of both biological and social forces, but trans people have existed in some form in all kinds of diverse societies from the Hijra in India, to the Travesti in South America, the Khatoey of Thailand, the two-spirit people of native american descent, - there are ample historical and cultural expressions of gender which go beyond the western patriarchal norms of men acting as men and women acting as women.

Are any of these 'trans people' female?

Are the male 'trans people' heterosexual?

PotholeParadies · 27/01/2021 14:43

jj for someone who spends so much time in FWR, it amuses me how culturally tone-deaf you are.

25% of women don't have children you say? Do you think not going through childbirth is as simple as typing "I don't want to have children" on a webforum?

The efforts required to avoid childbirth have shaped the passage of my life since puberty and will continue to do so until I hit menopause.

You are trying to segment the consequences of female biology into different categories in order to minimise it, thus proving the point about the negative impact of trans rights activists on women's rights.

sanluca · 27/01/2021 14:25

I see jj is still making it all about gender and identity and not about biological sex. Sorry to burst your bubble, jj, but women always find common ground on being female. Doesn't matter if you have children, don't have children, are menopausal, whatever. Always shared experiences.
The same shared experiences I can imagine transgender people have that anyone not transgender doesn't share. Funny that women have no problem with these shared trans experiences and don't try to coopt them. Unlike transwomen with being female. I always feel there is an enormous envy with transwomen against women, as deep down they know women have what they can never have. Seeings some of the comments on social media from some, it drives them a bit insane.

Daca · 27/01/2021 14:11

It makes me sad that you continue to ignore the "how much" question, jj1968.

How much female collateral damage you are willing to accept for your sex-abolitionist utopia?

As for "There is no universal experience of womanhood, or manhood for that matter.", the corollary too that would be "there is no universal experience of being human". There is the fact of human diversity - but we are al human. There is the fact of female diversity - but females are all female. Being male or female is the basic dividing line among humans. It's at the heart of human reproduction, our continued existence as a species. It is more meaningful than race, class, religion.

But men have done a fantastic job over the aeons to divide and conquer.

Floisme · 27/01/2021 13:46

Whether you are able to have children or not, whether you want to have children or not, pregnancy - whether it's trying to achieve it or to avoid it - dominates womens' lives up until middle age. I have yet to meet a man who shows any understanding, or quite frankly any interest, in what it's like.

andyoldlabour · 27/01/2021 13:42

jj1968

You talk about "feminists", but do you really know what a feminist is? Did you know that little Owen Jones "identifies" as a "feminist" according to his Wiki page? I only say this because IMHO it would be hard to find a more misogynistic person.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owen_Jones

How do you view transgender people who identify as a man on certain days and a woman on others, such as Pippa/Phillip Bunce?

jj1968 · 27/01/2021 13:31

So no, it's not "feminine type people" who are oppressed by "masculine type people". If that was the case we could all just identify out of being oppressed by adopting masculine stereotypes.

What I was really talking about here is if gender did fracture into a thousand pieces then would hierachy still emerge both based on sex at birth and gender - I think it would, the Hijra for example often see themselves as a third gender (although some see themselves as trans and some as both). They are clearly discriminated against on the basis of their gender, often forced into survival sex work for example. I don't really think it's either or, but that people can be discriminated against on the basis of both sex and gender. Obviously women are discriminated against on the basis of reproductive potential, but women are also oppressed based on gender, as are trans woman - there is a shared struggle there, primarily against male violence and male sexual violence which is undeniable I think.

@RadandMad

I don't disagree that no-one born male can fully understand the discrimination women go through relating to child birth (and other physical aspects), but that experience is not univeral to all women - roughly around 25% of women in the UK never have children - some women can't, many don't want to - I don't think this makes them imperfect women (which some in society do hence Wittig's comments about not being a woman because she is a lesbian), or women who don't experience discrimination. There are other forms of oppression based on gender, such as sexual abuse, which can be life shattering for example and in our day to day existence sexism plays out in insidious ways even down to people making assumptions based on our names when they may have never even met us or know what sex we were born.

There is no universal experience of womanhood, or manhood for that matter. No white woman in the west can know what it's like for a woman in Saudi Arabia, no middle class white man can truly understand what it like for a black kid growing up in the ghettos on the US, there are commonalities between both but also massive differences which are just as life defining as a shared experience of our physically sexed bodies.

I wonder whether so many male-born people would feel the need to publicly identify as women if the old, blindingly obvious disadvantages of being female were still in place.

They did, trans people have always existed but often in the shadows because being publically trans might result in violence or arrest. But there is a huge trans community in Pakistan for example, where women's rights have a long way to go. It's not something people choose to be, it's something that people are - why that is I do not know, I suspect a range of both biological and social forces, but trans people have existed in some form in all kinds of diverse societies from the Hijra in India, to the Travesti in South America, the Khatoey of Thailand, the two-spirit people of native american descent, - there are ample historical and cultural expressions of gender which go beyond the western patriarchal norms of men acting as men and women acting as women.

(And a side note on "oppression". That word has a specific meaning - systematic abuse, exploitation and injustice - which is in my view applicable only to inequality suffered on the basis of race, sex and class. So I do not accept that when feminine males are discriminated against this amounts to oppression.)

I note you only consider oppression applies to the characteristics that apply to you but I'm sorry, if you don't think oppression can exist based on sexuality, gender identity, disability, or religion, then I don't really know what to say except you're simply wrong. It was illegal to be gay for many years, and by de facto virtually illegal to be trans - it still is in some parts of the world, to the point of being punishable by death, if thats not oppression then I dont really know what is.

PotholeParadies · 27/01/2021 12:25

There is something in the idea that it's generational. I've been on mumsnet since my very early 20s. Previously to that, I was hanging out on other forums, and in retrospect, I am dubious about the motives and mindsets of some of the people I was talking to online between 16-19. I think there was a bit of indoctrination going on there.

dumpling23 · 27/01/2021 12:09

I don't entirely buy the generational bit. In my family - parents in late 70s early 80s; me, my siblings and all our partners, 44-54; and the children, 10-17 are all agreed: human's can't change sex, and arguments and thought systems that claim they can are just nonsense. Perhaps we have the advantage that my SIL is a medic and has been active in her professional circle against medical treatment for trans children (how right she has been proven!!) and so has been raising our awareness of all this very intelligently for a while. But really, once somebody points out the pitfalls and dangers of the 'be kind' position, you just can't go back.

To the person upthread who talked about explaining it to their 10 year old - I had just the same experience. My daughter was that age and she was simply gobsmacked to think that anybody could think for a single moment that it was our taste in clothes, hair, and nail polish that made us female! She knows her beliefs make her a bit of an outlier at school and that she needs to keep quiet in some contexts. She was annoyed with me for a while because she was in disagreement with another girl about this and said if we'd never talked about it she could have just gone along with the flow, but that passed and her annoyance is now with those who hold absurd beliefs. She started her period recently and gets more than ever that she is female and that there's something very special and valuable about that. It really makes me quite sad that her grasp of reality and self-respect for her own body are at odds with this pernicious ideology that is being taught to her generation.

MichelleofzeResistance · 27/01/2021 11:14

it doesn't really matter what's in your head, or how you feel, you cannot escape your biology.

In a nutshell, this is why females need sex based rights. To not understand that is to not understand the sex based differences and realities of being born in a biological that is permanently subordinated to the needs and wishes and control of the other sex.

No more than infant girls can identify out of being murdered for being girls, no more than little girls in some countries can identify out of being married and impregnated at an age that is going to kill them, no more than female people here can identify out of being told by males that they can no longer have their own sports, spaces, privacy, dignity, identity, language, hospital wards, anything - because it no longer suits male interests and needs and wishes for males to continue to grant this to the female sex.

Look at this thread: you have female people asking you what your limit is for what collateral damage you expect females to absorb so that male people may be enabled to have greater self realisation and a lot of other high faluting stuff.

Some of us are still stuck in the ruddy biology. Some of us do not have the freedom to identify into something nebulous, wonderful and better self realising. You can easily spot us, we all have something in common, and its the reality of biological sex.

TyroTerf · 27/01/2021 11:12

breaking the link between physical sex and gender role/behaviour is a necessary and important first step in dismantling [patriarchy]

The fact people think it's possible to break that link demonstrates they do not understand what gender is and, more impo, how it comes to be.

For as long as sexual dimorphism endures, there will be stereotypes associated with each sex. If you could thoroughly decouple the current local batch, new stereotypes attached to each sex will arise.

You could outlaw makeup and force everyone to wear the same old sacks, and you would find young people customising their sacks to indicate their sex class - because humans have a need to differentiate in order to attract mates - and before long we'd have feminine and masculine ways of wearing your old sack.

But that's an aside. The idea that you can decouple gender from sex is the idea that you can decouple sex stereotypes from sex - if you do this those stereotypes cease to be sex stereotypes and thus cease to be gender.

If it's just a fashion and not associated with one sex or the other, it's not gender.

dayoftheclownfish · 27/01/2021 11:02

I am also a woman and have also given birth. I am proud of my body and what it has done. Every single day. And that is not principally because of the love I feel for my child.

The physical changes brought on by pregnancy and birth can be debilitating, I feel for all my sisters who went through this. But it wasn't like this for me or only temporary, my sex life actually improved afterwards, and I feel more connected to my body.

RadandMad · 27/01/2021 09:29

@jj1968 I don't disagree with some of what you say, but in the end it doesn't really matter what's in your head, or how you feel, you cannot escape your biology. I never felt particularly feminine, I liked a lot of things boys like, I acted in pretty masculine ways, as defined by society, and often got stick for it. As a young woman, I assumed I could compete with men equally in life, and that my sex needn't hold me back.

All that held together until I got pregnant. Suddenly, and incessantly, my biology asserted itself and my body followed its own agenda. I felt sick all day and every day, so brain-numbingly tired I could hardly move. The birth was long and so painful I literally wanted to die. Breastfeeding was often painful and difficult. I kept getting mastitis. My career suffered from having to have time off work. I was passed up for promotions, and treated like I was no longer taking my job seriously. Pregnancy and breastfeeding permanently changed my body in ways I frankly didn't welcome.

So all those ideas I had about myself, how I felt inside, were insignificant compared with the impact of my biology on my life. That is why women know that the root of their oppression is rooted in their sex, and it's not something you can identify in or out of. That is why no one who feels like a woman will ever face the same challenges that women routinely face, in just living their lives. That is why we need our own spaces, our own sports, our own protections.

Daca · 27/01/2021 08:58

jj1968

Your reasoning here is a bit clearer and, dare I say, less belligerent than usual. Nonetheless, there are some issues with your arguments.

sex isn't quite as neatly defined as XX/XY

Yes, every biologist knows this. But there are only two pathways, this is how we as a species reproduce. You either make sperm and are able to impregnate, or you make eggs and are able to carry a baby (barring medical conditions).

elements of physical sex can be changed

Not really. No male has ever given birth. No female has ever impregnated another female. This is what sex is about. What humans have made of this basic category is another matter.

our internal sense of ourselves is also relevent as is how we live our lives

true but banal

how we are treated by others in a hierarchical society in which gender and all the social expectations and internal ingrained processes that come from it is very firmly based on how our bodies are, and how are bodies are perceived by others

It is true that some transpeople who pass are treated as the sex they are perceived as. This, however, stops as soon as someone is 'out' or does not pass. We can see this very clearly in the deferential treatment that some transwomen are granted by women and also men.

breaking the link between physical sex and gender role/behaviour is a necessary and important first step in dismantling [patriarchy]. ... Does that mean in the future people will not still face oppression because of sex at birth, or even that more feminine type people will not face oppression from more masculine type people - I don't know, but I think it's worth a try.

'It is worth a try.' Well. With any form of social engineering you have to ask who is paying for it. In this case it has become very clear that females are paying most of the bill for this social experiment. It has only been about half a decade after pro-gender ID policies have been brought in, and the damage (to women in prison, sports, detransitioners, accurate statistics ...) is palpable across several countries. You have been asked by others on this board how much collateral damage you are willing to accept before admitting that the experiment has not worked. How much?

EdgeOfACoin · 27/01/2021 07:33

'Femininity' is a funny thing, isn't it? 120 years ago, a woman who worked for money outside the home would have been considered either very poor or unfeminine.

A woman who wished to delay motherhood entirely, or not be a mother at all would have been seen as unnatural (this still holds true in some cultures).

What makes a woman feminine? My good friend eschews dresses and makeup and prefers short hair. She has, however, given birth and is raising that child. On the other hand, I wear makeup, have long hair and tend to wear skirts more than trousers. I don't have children. I am more physically active than she is. We are both the breadwinners in our relationships and take our careers seriously. She is in a more traditionally 'female' profession than I am, but for a while her partner was a sahd.

So what on earth do we have in common? Our femininity? Our masculinity? What does a mtf transitioner have in common with us both?

The thing that unites us is that we are biologically female. That's it. Ideas of masculinity and femininity are completely, utterly irrelevant.

Women used to be denied the vote, unable to hold money in their own names, needed a husband's signature to get a mortgage and had no control over their reproductive rights. Over the years, women have made gains in all these areas. Suddenly, womanhood is seen as something to be identified into. I wonder whether so many male-born people would feel the need to publicly identify as women if the old, blindingly obvious disadvantages of being female were still in place.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 27/01/2021 07:10

Sleep well, Brandine. Smile

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