2021 Census - sex not gender

I heard the interview on the Today program.
It was very clearly stated that you should put your sex as what it says on your birth certificate unless you have had that changed.

Gender to be listed separately.

I can’t see how this could leave anyone upset.

We already know how few people have a GRC.

That some more people identify as a different gender to their birth sex is mildly interesting. To some.

Planning services for the population on the other hand needs accurate data. Though If a few muppets wish to skew the data perhaps they should consider the consequences. Imagine (OK, in my dreams) if we ended up with better healthcare for women as a result.

I honestly don't understand the thinking behind putting down the sex you 'identify as' rather than the sex you 'are'. How is the NHS supposed to tool up for the correct number of trans patients if they don't get accurate numbers from the census? Isn't that the purpose of the census, long-term planning of what's need for the population we have/will have?

To take that to its logical conclusion, if everyone returned that they were the sex they wanted to be, the NHS could, theoretically, stop providing any transition services because clearly they weren't needed, the census told them so! How does that benefit anyone? Even at best it just lengthens queues. It prioritises validation over service provision. And the validation is 'locked' for a century anyway!

Census data is used to help decision-making. Inaccurate data only produces poor decisions.

We can't stop people lying on Census forms so nothing to be done about that but at least there is a clear message that sex and gender are not the same thing in official statistics.

Stonewall could put its funds to good use and tell its followers why sex matters regardless of how you identify. Because it does.
That would help, and given their public funding status I'd say it is their duty to try and get the message across after all the confusion they have caused.
But we know they won't, so it's time to stop giving them public money. I'm sure NatWest and others will carry on funding them.

This is good news, and I really hope National Records of Scotland are paying attention. Of course ideally we would be recording sex at birth rather than the falsified birth certificates of those with a GRC but ONS have to work within the law as it stands so I think this is a reasonable approach. As others have said, only a small number of people have a GRC. We can't stop people lying on Census forms so nothing to be done about that but at least there is a clear message that sex and gender are not the same thing in official statistics.

"There will be a separate, voluntary question for those aged over 16 about their gender identity, which was welcomed by Nancy Kelley, chief executive of Stonewall, a pressure group for LGBT rights. She said: “It’s great that the 2021 census will include voluntary questions on sexual orientation and trans status for the first time. Collecting accurate population data on sexual orientation and trans status is vital to ensuring that organisations can develop services targeted to the needs of the LGBT population.”

It would be great if Stonewall and co could admit how irresponsible they have been in the census debate. They keep telling the people they're supposedly advocating for that 'sex doesn't matter'. What about things like health? Their behaviour is maddening and it actually puts people at risk.

"A recent freedom of information response revealed that ONS hosted a roundtable discussion about the guidance for the sex question on 24 June 2020. The names of those who attended are redacted but there were representatives from Stonewall, the LGBT Foundation, the Government Equalities Office (GEO), NHS England, the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) and Fair Play For Women (FPFW), the LGBT National Health Adviser, and individuals from 11 UK higher education institutions.

Documents released in the same FOI response reveal an extended correspondence between Stonewall and officials at ONS. The tone and rapidity of the exchange of emails suggests a close relationship between the two organisations, not dissimilar to the relationship between the NRS and the Scottish Trans Alliance, as seen in correspondence released via another FOI request lodged last year.

By way of contrast, ONS took six days to respond to a query from the FPFW representative who attended the meeting and the UCL representative (which we have confirmed is Professor Alice Sullivan) did not receive responses from ONS to queries in emails sent on 9 and 17 June for three and two days respectively.

Prior to the meeting – presumed to be a video conference call, given the Covid-related restrictions in place at the time – the Stonewall representative sought assurance from ONS that “this is not a hostile environment for trans attendees”. They also suggested that ONS extend an invitation to a representative of another LGBT organisation, which ONS appear to confirm in response."

murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2020/09/24/back-under-the-radar-a-review-of-plans-for-the-census/

[quote PlantMam]Over on subreddit Transgender UK, posters are just saying they will answer the ‘sex’ question however they like...

www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/l2trto/2021_census_21_march_why_we_need_to_answer_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf[/quote]
Okay, so presumably they'll be happy to receive healthcare appropriate to the sex they 'identify as', then?

It's not going to do yourself any favours, for goodness' sake. There's feelings and there's prostate/uterus issues.

According to the article: "There will be a separate, voluntary question for those aged over 16 about their gender identity"

If this question is included, the framing of this question is important and therefore we can expect a big struggle over it. The question should ask something like:
"Do you identify as transgender?" or "Are you transgender?" with two main answers
Yes (with suboptions trans woman, trans man, nonbinary, other)
or
No

It would be bad and will not capture any useful information if the question is: "what is your gender identity?" with answers "male, female, nonbinary, other". Because (a) people do not understand it (b) it assumes everyone has a gender identity (c) it would not capture the information about how many people identify as trans.

Over on subreddit Transgender UK, posters are just saying they will answer the ‘sex’ question however they like...

www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/l2trto/2021_census_21_march_why_we_need_to_answer_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

‘The heading has now changed:
'Sex question back on census in blow to trans lobby'.

Bloody well done to everyone who complained, and good for the Times for listening.’

Echoing that hurrah to all involved!

Increasingly delighted that I subscribe to The Times now and not that despicable misogynist pile of crap. I don’t even need to name it.

Well done and huge thank you to Alice Sullivan et al

The heading has now changed:
'Sex question back on census in blow to trans lobby'.

Bloody well done to everyone who complained, and good for the Times for listening.

I don't get the 'blow to trans rights' either.

Surely it is good for trans rights that trans people are recognised and recorded?

The Today programme interview with Sir Ian Diamond, that is referred to in the article, was on Friday at about 2:44 in.

From the ONS website - this needs challenging:

“It is important to note that the law in the UK treats the terms sex and gender as interchangeable. This is shown by the Gender Recognition Act allowing someone who is changing their gender to change the sex marker on their birth certificate.”

We need to remind them of the Equality Act 2010!

www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/articles/whatisthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21

Anyone fancy writing to the authors:

Laura Tolland and Joanne Evans
[email protected]

Good news. I don't think this covers Scotland, sadly.

I think the article knows what it's doing. The 'blow to transgender rights' aspect has elicited exactly the right kind of comments — all about sanity, two sexes, honesty, truth and science. Any politicians scanning the comments for a quick poll on where public opinion lies will be in no doubt.

OhHolyJesus

The data will be slightly screwed, but 5000 people in a country of 65 million is not much.

I guess that the problem with asking for biological sex is that, as we're seeing with the trans rhetoric, an amazing number of people don't understand what that is. "What it says on your birth certificate" is unambiguous, hence it's probably going to give the most accurate data. The GRA got us into this mess.

Am I missing something - anyone with a GRC will note their 'chosen gender' as the sex answer so the data will still be skewed.

It should just be sex and use the gender answer for what your GRC says if you have one, then a question on gender identity which is optional.

Every little step into the world of reality is a good thing

The correct decision but not a good way to spin it, I agree.

Strange, why would it be a blow to trans rights? Can’t read the whole thing but if there is still a question about gender identity surely there’s no problem? Like birth certificates, a census needs to be a document based in reality or it’s completely pointless. The results could be illuminating.

The comments are heartening. Several point out that the “blow for trans rights” line is incorrect.

Anyway, despite the political slant taken, this is great news. Those running the census have recognized the slippery slope they were putting themselves on in allowing self-ID in the responses and have reversed that decision.

The reversal is obviously going to be more publicised than the original change, which was brought in under the radar and with no public discussion. It might well wake a few more people up as to what is being quietly brought in behind the scenes.

How is it a “blow to trans rights”? Being required to accurately fill in a form with no information anyone else will see?

I seem to remember some people on Twitter who stated their determination to lie because they view their birth certificate as wrong, there’s a screenshot on an older thread IIRC.

It’s so self-defeating. Regardless of how people identify, they still need services on the basis of their sex.

The question on gender identity is voluntary (hurrah, will leave blank).

Of course, one of the dopey comments btl says 'is there an option for "yes please"?', which I seem to recall is one of the reasons why organisations were happy to make the move to asking for gender not sex in the first place.

I note that it asks for 'legal' sex, so presumably those with a GRC can answer according to what is on their re-issued birth certificate? (Wondering how Keira Bell should answer, since her bc has her down as a male).

Very disappointed in the way the Sunday Times has spun this. It's not a blow to trans rights it's a "victory for common sense" (in true Daily Mail parlance) so that data can be recorded accurately. If a town needs to know how much maternity or gynaelogical provision to provide, it needs to know how many biological females live in the town.