2021 Census - sex not gender

@statsgeek1
careful you don’t misgender those ‘boys and girls in blue’. As a related point, I assume you wouldn’t particularly like it if they didn’t uphold the law, nor would you like it if they didn’t identify themselves correctly as officers of the law.

It’s all part and parcel of the same thing.

Society works well when we can fundamentally identify ourselves and each other with the correct language. This pertains to our sex, our names, our professions.

That’s fine, as long as you don’t persist in your belief that “living in a democracy” means “free to break the law”. If you live by yourself and don’t return a census they usually chase up why. I suspect someone does it for you.

NotBadConsidering -

I'm inclined to think we'll disagree about the Times but, I'm pleased they are asking about gender identity.

As for avoiding the fine, perhaps I've been lucky but, I'm quite confident with a reasonable defence of' it clearly got lost in the post', I,m confident the boys and girls in blue would struggle to make the grade on the points to prove.

In my opinion the story in the Times could quite easily mislead the casual passer by to read that the so called 'trans lobby' had been stopped from having the category of sex removed from it.

That is exactly what the lobby (Stonewall and others) tried to do. They wanted sex to mean self-identified gender. Some went so far as to 'de-platform' Alice Sullivan - Nancy Kelley herself appears to have been involved in that.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/census-fears-over-gender-identity-rmx0gmzxq

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/stonewalls-new-boss-nancy-kelley-let-census-expert-be-no-platformed-ljsnw6v3r

You are quite right that some people will not answer the sex question accurately, but words matter and official surveys like census must reflect reality and not just the worldview of dysphoric people.

In my opinion the story in the Times could quite easily mislead the casual passer by to read that the so called 'trans lobby' had been stopped from having the category of sex removed from it.

That’s what some were campaigning for.

Personally, I have never filled one in and don't intend to start next year. I don't imagine I am alone in that, it's the beauty of democracy.

You realise the UK census is compulsory don’t you? If you’ve never filled one in someone in your household probably did it for you or you’ve been lucky to escape a fine.

Stumblein - If a census did not ask a supplemental question around gender identity (whether people believe in that concept or not) in addition to sex I'd personally have been quite surprised if many trans people would have recorded their sex at birth. After all irrespective of biological reality, when people fill out forms of this nature they generally do so in line with a way that they see themselves and ironically as such are self identifying in a way. Asking both is a good option and could give somewhere near accurate data with regards to the amount of trans people in the country in addition to data that is useful to inform the provision of services for women. In my opinion the story in the Times could quite easily mislead the casual passer by to read that the so called 'trans lobby' had been stopped from having the category of sex removed from it. To be honest, I'm sure that wa probably the intention and I wouldn't have expected any different from The Times. Personally, I have never filled one in and don't intend to start next year. I don't imagine I am alone in that, it's the beauty of democracy.

statsgeek1 - if you have followed any of the many threads on here about changes to the Census you would know (and in fact I took part in a trial of it so I do know) the question on sex was going to have the additional comment that you could complete this based on your identity, not what had been recorded on your birth certificate.

Why do you think there was all this campaigning?

So the story in the Times is accurate, despite its provocative title.

And even if the Census officials didn't listen to arguements from gender critical feminists, we can be glad they listened to academics who pointed out what a colossal act of stupidity it would be to not have the census record accurate information. And so be able to see how well or how badly women's equality has progressed since the last census and census to come.

For once commone sense and reality have prevailed.

The last census in 2011 asked for sex. The next census is going to ask for sex(no change to 2011)plus additional questions around gender identity. Most transsexual/gender people are very aware of their sex and their subsequent discomfort with it. As a result, I'm pretty convinced the framing of the story in The Times is misleading at best.

Get me that balloon now!

[quote Angryresister]Thought there might be interest in what these women in Manchester did in response to registering for the census early in the 20th century. www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/picture-captures-manchester-suffragettes-hiding-6733274[/quote]
That's a great read, thanks. It seems to me that we now need a second suffragette movement, seeing as now men can count as women.

Thought there might be interest in what these women in Manchester did in response to registering for the census early in the 20th century. www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/picture-captures-manchester-suffragettes-hiding-6733274

...wtf, autocorrect? No idea how "makes sense" became "keep it on"!

Ah, it's been edited, makes sense! Thought I was going mad there, because the way it's phrased now keep it on. Serves me right for not having read the whole thread.

archive.vn/6W3wU

Where does the article say this is a blow to trans rights?

I can see it says a blow to the trans lobby, and to the TRAs, but not to rights.

Good new about the national census. I wonder if the school census will follow suit. I think a lot of people don't realise that schools don't normally record students' sex; only their gender, and these are the data used in the annual schools census. This is what the DfE guidance says:

We need this data for both on and off roll pupils.

The gender of the pupil in the format of ‘M’ (male) or ‘F’ (female).

Gender should be self-declared and recorded according to the wishes of the parent and / or pupil.

Individuals are free to change the way their gender is recorded. There is no requirement from the department for any legal change or gender recognition certificate and it remains open for the school to amend the gender of any pupil, within their own MIS, at any time.

Not much danger of that, Nancy was in twitter yesterday telling everyone that the Sex question is voluntary and encouraging people to still treat it like a ‘gender’ question.

Bless her, I think she was getting confused between sex, gender, and sexual orientation. Perhaps she needs some training?

Apparently it is very undesirable (for unspecified but darkly hinted reasons) to allow a government agency to hold data on whether someone is trans.

The TRAs really are their own worst enemies as the question on gender identity is for their benefit, nobody else's. If they want to lie, confuse or withhold information on either the mandatory or voluntary questions so it's impossible to make much sense of the data it will be their funding that suffers.

That is scary rozwatching these close relationships

But good news on the census

It would be great if Stonewall and co could admit how irresponsible they have been in the census debate

Not much danger of that, Nancy was in twitter yesterday telling everyone that the Sex question is voluntary and encouraging people to still treat it like a ‘gender’ question.

Apparently it is very undesirable (for unspecified but darkly hinted reasons) to allow a government agency to hold data on whether someone is trans.

Mishy this data provides the raw source for many researchers. It may feel like it is ‘big data’ and accuracy and honest responses don’t matter but when you drill down to specific areas, as we’ve seen with the ‘female’ sex offending data, a small change can make a big difference. That was looking at a population of hundreds but the percentage difference was huge. If research is used to inform policy or decision making it is hugely important.

B Cohen is most unhappy about the change in headline. Am I imagining it or is the Times getting more supportive as time goes on?

Clearly this is the right thing to do, but will it make any difference? Won't all the TWs just put their sex down as 'female' because they genuinely (magically) believe they are, and there is nothing to stop them?

The small number of trans people in the UK, it is hardly going to move the needle or make a difference if they select the wrong gender. This is big data. Small variants get lost in the wash....

The DM take: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9182797/Census-gender-question-asked-declare-sex-identify-as.html

University College London sociology professor Alice Sullivan said: 'Sex is an important predictor of outcomes across all areas of life, including education, wages, crime, and physical and mental health.

'If we do not monitor sex differences, we cannot tackle sex discrimination.

'Gender identity is not the same thing as sex.

'Understanding people's identities is important, especially at a time when increasing numbers of girls are identifying as trans or non-binary.

'But we cannot simply assume that the lives of these girls are not also affected by the fact that they are female.'

This is the guidance for the sex question in the 2019 census rehearsal

The sex question on the census will be mandatory, so will need to be answered by all. However, for those whose gender is different from their sex registered at birth, who may find the question difficult to answer, the answer they provide does not need to be the same as their birth certificate.

If you are one or more of non-binary, transgender, have variations of sex characteristics, sometimes also known as intersex, the answer you give can be different from what is on your birth certificate.

If you’re not sure how to answer, use the sex registered on your official documents, such as passport or driving licence, or whichever answer best describes your sex.

At the top of the page it says:
This article relates to guidance used in the 2019 Rehearsal. The guidance to be used for Census 2021 is currently under review

There isn't much time left for reviewing it, but I couldn't find an update on the site about the 2021 census.

I would think that, if you were say a transman, putting down both your sex and gender as male surely denies that you are trans which is part of your identity.

I was really pleased to read this earlier today. And thought it is worth taking a moment to thank everyone whether as grassroots activists, key board activists or academics for not giving up on the pressure on the Census compilers to recognise the danger to actual facts if the question on sex was allowed to be self identity.

However, as far as I know up until this proposal, the question on sex in previous census was assumed to be about sex. Whether or not trans activists chose to answer based on how they felt rather than fact, is in fact the reason why it became an issue this time.

So it isn't a reversal. It is confirmation of the intention of the question as it has always been - about biological facts. (some trans activists on twitter are saying who cares I have always answered how I feel).

The concession is the additional voluntary question about self identity.

You would have thought trans activists would have welcomed this because if answered correctly not only this time but into the future it should (if they are right in their assertions) provide actual number of just how many people have a gender identity.

You would have thought that would want to be able to demonstrate just how many of them there are.

Or maybe it is because they know that out in the real world most people want answer as it is irrelevant to them, or there will be so few in terms of the population as a whole, that it will undermine their campaigning on how this is such an important central issue for everyone.