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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'Transwomen' (though not 'transmen' welcome at Ann Summers parties. Love balls.

182 replies

Defaultname · 23/01/2021 22:19

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9179371/Ann-Summer-chief-says-transgender-women-welcome-sales-parties-wants-empower-them.html

OP posts:
MissBarbary · 24/01/2021 15:30

@SqueakyCarrots

Actually the fact that sex role stereotypes are socialised was the dominant academic thinking a good 30 years ago when I did my degree. There’s god knows how much social studies to back it up. So much literature on the subject.

Thinking females are born submissive and gentle and caring is akin to flat earth theory.

The dominant view on here is to believe science. So we don’t buy aromatherapy cures cancer or that autism is caused by vaccines or that climate change is a myth. Believing science, and social sciences where science wouldn’t be ethical, is no different when it comes to sex and sex role stereotypes socialisation.

Thinking females are born submissive and gentle and caring is akin to flat earth theory Yet apparently being born in Scotland imparts

But thinking being born in Scotland means being born with some sort of innate, self- deprecating sense of humour is fine. Ok- is it something to do with the high standard of the Scottish water supply.

There is transphobia on this thread and it isn't coming from Quaggers, despite the determination of some posters to say it is.

Defaultname · 24/01/2021 15:28

EdgeOfACoin said "The sort of person who is comfortable going to an AS party is likely to feel comfortable with transgender attendees."

I'd be interested in how you define this demographic. In terms of class? Education? IQ?

OP posts:
EdgeOfACoin · 24/01/2021 15:12

Personally, I would never go to an Ann Summers party and don't really care who goes or doesn't go. Are they even necessary these days? You can get everything online now.

I do think that this is an issue that will reach a natural resolution. The sort of person who is comfortable going to an AS party is likely to feel comfortable with transgender attendees. Provided the transgender attendees are respectful and don't make anyone else feel uncomfortable, nobody is going to mind. The women who do mind will stop going, but will probably be a minority.

I can see a possible issue with a certain type of mtf transitioner (like the ones who post on the Girls Like Us page) who really do fetishise the female experience. If they start setting up AS parties or start wangling invites to AS parties, the entire ethos will change. At that point AS reps may feel uncomfortable hosting and switch to other MLMs to make money. Ordinary women might stop attending the parties, at which point the AS business model would fail.

However, honestly, this is not the biggest priority for me when it comes to women-only spaces.

On the other discussion points, I'm pretty sure it's been well-documented that males engage more in fetishes than women. Fetishes are not the same as 'sexy thoughts'. It really is disingenuous to say that makes and females engage in fetishes at anything like the same level.

SqueakyCarrots · 24/01/2021 15:09

Where have I claimed there’s anything wrong with femininity?

I think it’d be a great thing if males were socialised into being caring and gentle and putting others first.

Or do you mean the outside trappings of femininity? I just said upthread I like nice lingerie, how is that abhorring femininity?

There’s is nothing scientific that says femininity is inherent to being born female, or that masculinity is inherent to being born male. This is what’s meant by ‘one is not born but becomes a woman’. Sex role stereotype socialisation begins immediately and is overwhelming influential. A great deal of how women are socialised is to the benefit of men- so we will put our needs last, so we can look the way they tell us too. Our choices and preferences don’t develop in a vacuum. If the leading trend in porn was women with a full bush and hairy legs a great deal more of us would think that’s our preference. Being able to evaluate the affect of that isn’t any criticism of femininity itself, I shave my legs, I like the way it feels, I like doing it when I deep condition my hair and use a body scrub and body oil. I do this because it pleases me, but I’m aware the fact it pleases me didn’t develop with zero influence. Critiquing the influence and affect on women as a group isn’t any call for women to burn their bras and chuck away razors. The personal is not always the political and where it is it’s entirely possible to ustilise critical thinking about the affect of that on women as a group, while still taking part in the femininity being critiqued. We live in an unequal society, there is no feminist choice within that structure, not shaving my legs or shaving my legs contributes to women’s rights not a fuck. But I can still understand the beauty myth and be informed.

Substitute any action of femininity you like with shaving legs or whatever.

No one is deriding anyone liking ‘feminine’ things, we’re just aware that they have fuck all to do with the reality that we are stuck being female even if we discarded every bit of ‘femininity’ there is. We are still stuck at the mercy of our biology and the biology of the men who use our physically weaker bodies against us as their socialisation teachers them they are entitled to.

On fwr the issue will always be with masculinity or with the anti science anti fact myth that there’s anything inherent about femininity and being female or masculinity and being male.

Covidcorvid · 24/01/2021 14:57

@LApprentiSorcier

I’m saying that generally only men have a fetish which involves making others feel uncomfortable. I’ve seen and read about plenty of examples. Always male perpetrators.

Or only males who get caught ...

I say again, you have no idea what is going on inside anyone's head at an event like this. You are making assumptions based on:

Male or transwoman: Potential festishist
Woman: Person who would never dream of having sexual thoughts about anyone else.

Not true. How do you know I don’t have plenty of fetishes of my own? You’re making assumptions about me.

But it’s only men who have flashed at me, who have wanked infront of me while walking down the street. It’s only been a man who got into a gym jacuzzi, sat next to me and started wanking.

Lucieintheskye · 24/01/2021 14:56

@ItsLateHumpty

Actually Quaagars you’re being short sighted and both you and Ann Summers are being transphobic.

All their cock rings use he / him pronouns which is exclusive language and othering. They also (like you seem to be) haven’t allowed for men who don’t have cocks.
It seems very much like you are both saying if you have a cock you’re a man. And to be a man you must have a cock.

I hope that no trans woman goes to one of their parties and gets triggered when one of the sex toys designed for their bodies is aimed at men only.

You must both do better.

This.
Quaagars · 24/01/2021 14:46

Laughing and taking the piss online is now transphobic.

Er, 'cos that's what I said Confused Hmm

I have been to an AS party, many years ago

Same, been to a couple, also many years ago, wouldn't bother me if there were trans women there.

despairenting · 24/01/2021 14:43

Meh. This doesn't bother me at all. They're private parties, right? Why shouldn't transwomen be welcome to go to parties with their friends if they want to go and their friends want them there? It's not some sacred female space where women will be disadvantaged if transwomen are there.

Fuckingcrustybread · 24/01/2021 14:39

Yep - nothing to do with self ID etc, more having a laugh "where do you put the love eggs" etc
Nice
Not
It's not transphobic here though, oh no
Apparently
That's a new one and definitely a made up one. Laughing and taking the piss online is now transphobic. Fuck me, you learn something every day!
I have been to an AS party, many years ago, I thought it was quite tacky and really not my style. I wouldn't like to go to one with men present.

Quaagars · 24/01/2021 14:36

Thinking females are born submissive and gentle and caring is akin to flat earth theory

OK, and I agree there - women don't have to be submissive, gentle, caring.
We're all different, all individual people.
What you seem to fail to see though is that there is nothing wrong with femininity, that it isn't a bad thing, and women can want to be feminine FOR THEMSELVES and that has nothing to do with wanting to do it for the men.

ThePankhurstConnection · 24/01/2021 14:36

These are parties designed to sell things. I imagine anyone is welcome really - it's capitalism Wink

Datun · 24/01/2021 14:35

If Ann Summers wants to include males in their parties, then that's fine, as long as everyone knows they are mixed sex.

You can't say it's for women, if it's for both sexes.

And yes, many women wouldn't go if men were there.

The whole idea is to be able to discuss the merchandise away from males.

MaudTheInvincible · 24/01/2021 14:34

Disagree that femininity/gender is purely sex role stereotypes

What is your definition of femininity?

'Transwomen' (though not 'transmen' welcome at Ann Summers parties. Love balls.
SqueakyCarrots · 24/01/2021 14:32

Actually the fact that sex role stereotypes are socialised was the dominant academic thinking a good 30 years ago when I did my degree. There’s god knows how much social studies to back it up. So much literature on the subject.

Thinking females are born submissive and gentle and caring is akin to flat earth theory.

The dominant view on here is to believe science. So we don’t buy aromatherapy cures cancer or that autism is caused by vaccines or that climate change is a myth. Believing science, and social sciences where science wouldn’t be ethical, is no different when it comes to sex and sex role stereotypes socialisation.

Quaagars · 24/01/2021 14:29

Disagree that femininity/gender is purely sex role stereotypes

Same
But because we disagree it must be because we're not understanding words!
Er, no - We Just. Don't. Agree. With You.

Aspiringmatriarch · 24/01/2021 14:27

@SqueakyCarrots

If they don’t see femininity as props to be their idea of a woman then how exactly do they ‘feel like a woman’.

Femininity is just the sex role stereotypes women are subjected too. Perhaps you misunderstand words?

Oh no you compared us to racists, ah no you suggest we are boogies!?!? Appealing to female sex role stereotypes to silence women won’t work here.

Disagree that femininity/gender is purely sex role stereotypes but I'm aware this is the dominant view on here. I don't actually understand the last bit of your post but ok. Think I'll leave the thread now as it's full of the usual unpleasant tropes and clearly pretty baked in so not sure why I bothered expressing a view to start with!
LApprentiSorcier · 24/01/2021 14:24

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Should all males be allowed to attend Ann Summers parties? At least then everyone would know where they stood.
I would go along with that. These are not open-invitation parties, after all, so it should be for the host to invite who they want.
Defaultname · 24/01/2021 14:23

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Should all males be allowed to attend Ann Summers parties? At least then everyone would know where they stood.
In about half the cases 'standing' might be literally true!

If I've got Anne Summers' policy right, the only way one group of 'trans' people woukd be welcome-'transmen'-would be if the parties were inclusive of both sexes.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/01/2021 14:17

Should all males be allowed to attend Ann Summers parties? At least then everyone would know where they stood.

Deliriumoftheendless · 24/01/2021 14:15

@MichelleofzeResistance

Go for it, have fun, wtf not if you'd enjoy it? Confused There's always tupperwear parties too.
I do t think Tupperware parties exist anymore, which is a shame as I love Tupperware.
SqueakyCarrots · 24/01/2021 14:14

Haha bigots!! Fricken typos

SqueakyCarrots · 24/01/2021 14:13

If they don’t see femininity as props to be their idea of a woman then how exactly do they ‘feel like a woman’.

Femininity is just the sex role stereotypes women are subjected too. Perhaps you misunderstand words?

Oh no you compared us to racists, ah no you suggest we are boogies!?!? Appealing to female sex role stereotypes to silence women won’t work here.

SqueakyCarrots · 24/01/2021 14:10

This reply has been deleted

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Aspiringmatriarch · 24/01/2021 14:08

@SqueakyCarrots

Was actually replying to your other post aspiring but it answers your next question also.

Yes tw eroding women only anywhere is the problem. They are more than welcome at anything that isn’t woman only, but they can’t change the meaning of our words even in seemingly irrelevant and unimportant areas like Ann summers mlms.

‘Trotting along’ because they see femininity as props to become a woman, so wear heels. It’s tongue in cheek, but again that doesn’t seem to translate well.

Sorry I didn't see this post Carrots. OK, so 'trotting along' is tongue in cheek, didn't read that way to me particularly but fair enough.

'They see femininity as props to become a woman'. All of them? Really? Again this comes across to me as a sweeping, negative generalisation which isn't necessary to base any arguments on re female-only spaces. So yes I do view that as fairly obviously transphobic. But I guess maybe it's a bit like being racist - nobody thinks they are, and everyone points at the more extreme examples as proof.

Tbh having read through this thread I have more sympathy with the idea that it may not be safe or appropriate to include transwomen in this instance, but there is absolutely transphobia on display as well.

OldFolksTalkinBoutBackinMyDay2 · 24/01/2021 14:08

@Quaagars

Also wondering how wearing sexy underwear is for the men, to indulge their fetishes?! Can we not wear it for US, because it makes us feel good?! Admittedly, I'm more Bridget Jones type ones now lol but still Grin

Like you I am learning about sexual fetishes. Isn't it great!