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A horrific example of how badly wrong surrogacy can go

113 replies

everythingcrossed · 19/01/2021 18:34

The Times is reporting on a well-know Chinese actress, Zheng Shuang, who commissioned two women in the States to have babies for her and her boyfriend. When they split up, she was recorded ranting that it was unfair that she couldn't have the babies aborted or put up for adoption. (This recording has led to her losing a Prada contract which was the hook for the story.)

In the recording Zheng allegedly expressed frustration that her two surrogates in the United States could not legally abort their pregnancies in the third trimester. Her parents are said to have told her to give the children up for adoption.

The children, who were born in December 2019 and January 2020 have, according to the report, been left in the States because Zheng won't take responsibility for them.

It's an absolutely horrifying portrait of entitlement and lack of conscience. What struck me in particular was the more general observation in the piece that It is common for wealthy Chinese couples and single people to have children through surrogate mothers in other countries such as Russia and Ukraine. Several US states are also popular. Within China the issue is highly contentious, especially because the black market has led to many disputes between clients and surrogates.

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ginandronicformeplease · 19/01/2021 22:57

They will be US citizens: I don't know whether he'd be eligible to stay there because of that. I did read an article a while ago about how many Chinese people are now buying babies from the US (and that is what surrogacy is) rather than cheaper places such as the Ukraine because US born babies come with a US passport and the advantages that has.

OhHolyJesus · 19/01/2021 22:57

Another surrogacy story from China which makes a point about the importance of a birth certificate.

Surrogate born Chinese girl without birth certificate - mother is blamed www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4135089-Surrogate-born-Chinese-girl-without-birth-certificate-mother-is-blamed

OhHolyJesus · 19/01/2021 22:55

Based on her career a s that not one but two women commissioned to have babies for this couple, I'm guessing that this is a straight up case of 'social surrogacy' - where infertility is not the issue, it is the inconvenience of pregnancy that this women wanted to avoid.

Of course she also avoided risk, pain and time off work, though it's still unclear that her eggs were used. As commissioning parents in the US I don't think you have the same restrictions as in U.K. where you need to have one of you genetically related to the child in order to apply for a parental order which grants legal parental responsibility and a new birth certificate is issued.

In the US you own what you pay for so the reason why she is named on the BCs could be because of that.

Also, 2 babies by two women? The only reason I can come up with was she/they wanted twins but a Dr persuaded them to reduce risk of multiple pregnancy and hie two women to 'spread the load'.

An unbelievable cavalier, consumer-like attitude and one that is common in commercial surrogacy arrangements as far as I can tell.

Sheleg · 19/01/2021 22:52

Disgusting.

Also interesting how the tables have turned. A generation ago, it was rich Americans adopting Chinese babies. Now it's wealthy Chinese commissioning American surrogates. In both cases, it's female who are harmed. Surprise surprise.

PlantMam · 19/01/2021 22:45

That makes sense. Surely their birth place still makes them US citizens though, so dad can apply to stay there on those grounds? Otherwise what, his children become wards of the US State?

Of course, he may well just want to go home, with his kids, and it not really be about the visa expiry at all, which is fair enough.

Wonder how it would’ve panned out if the commissioning ‘mother’ had been pregnant with twins herself when the relationship broke down? Too late to terminate - would she have been willing to relinquish babies she’d carried inside her and given her ex sole custody from birth?

The sad fact of surrogacy is that even with the most altruistic of arrangements, you don’t get that pregnancy bond. I’m sure some commissioning parents do build one but nonetheless, much easier to give up babies you’ve never even laid eyes on.

There must be something more to this, if the commissioning mother genuinely gave no shits surely she can get some kind of legal agreement drawn up that leaves all the responsibility with dad? Although to my mind, she should be responsible for paying child support, same as other absentee parents.

ginandronicformeplease · 19/01/2021 22:44

If she is on the birth certificate then he will not be able to get the babies US passports and leave the US without her involvement: due to the risk of parental abduction I believe US law states that both parents need to give permission for the passports and to leave the country, so if he is deported for overstaying his visa he will not be able to return for ten years and the babies will stay in the US. I don't know whether she needs to be involved for them to get Chinese citizenship.

Those poor children.

Puddington · 19/01/2021 22:28

Additionally she is listed as the mother on both their birth certificates.

Puddington · 19/01/2021 22:27

From what I've read on Chinese pop culture sites her ex-boyfriend actually HAS been looking after the kids and taking full responsibility after she opted out, but he needs her cooperation to bring them back to China and she has thus far refused to do so and his American visa is running out, which is presumably why the recordings of her were recently "leaked" by an unnamed friend in an attempt to force her hand.

ktp100 · 19/01/2021 22:16

Wow. There's low and then there's this shit.

I truly hope the bitch never works again.

PandorasMailbox · 19/01/2021 22:09

Have just left a comment telling the person referring to their surrogate as a gestational carrier, that they should be ashamed of using such a dehumanising term. Awful.

Patienceisvirtuous · 19/01/2021 22:01

At least those babies won’t be stuck with that cold-hearted woman as their mother.

Awful story.

OvaHere · 19/01/2021 22:01

Gestational carrier (GC) I have no words to describe how angry this term make me.

Yes, it's so clinical and devoid of humanity. If language like this has to be utilised so people can distance themselves from the reality of their actions then there should be a big question mark over just how ethical what they're doing is.

PlantMam · 19/01/2021 21:58

I’ve just been looking at some stories of gay Chinese parents using American surrogates (thinking it might shed some light on the issue that the Chinese dad might be facing now co-missioning ex has backed out) and it seems they generally like the American mother to stay on the birth certificate (presumably to be able to claim the child’s US passport) so not having a Chinese mother definitely isn’t causing the blockage.

Maybe dad is using them as an anchor for himself?
Either that or the intended ‘mother’ signed paperwork giving her some kind of legal jurisdiction over the unborn babies and is refusing to relinquish it? No way of knowing if they are even related to her - apparently Chinese parents quite often use American egg donors as well as American surrogate mothers?

Whatever is going on, it’s a mess. Those poor babies.

SoSheDid · 19/01/2021 21:56

@everythingcrossed

The Times is reporting on a well-know Chinese actress, Zheng Shuang, who commissioned two women in the States to have babies for her and her boyfriend. When they split up, she was recorded ranting that it was unfair that she couldn't have the babies aborted or put up for adoption. (This recording has led to her losing a Prada contract which was the hook for the story.)

In the recording Zheng allegedly expressed frustration that her two surrogates in the United States could not legally abort their pregnancies in the third trimester. Her parents are said to have told her to give the children up for adoption.

The children, who were born in December 2019 and January 2020 have, according to the report, been left in the States because Zheng won't take responsibility for them.

It's an absolutely horrifying portrait of entitlement and lack of conscience. What struck me in particular was the more general observation in the piece that It is common for wealthy Chinese couples and single people to have children through surrogate mothers in other countries such as Russia and Ukraine. Several US states are also popular. Within China the issue is highly contentious, especially because the black market has led to many disputes between clients and surrogates.

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Just read the comments in the link...

Gestational carrier (GC) I have no words to describe how angry this term make me.

Oreservoir · 19/01/2021 21:51

Having a baby is often the most dangerous thing a woman will ever do
@AwaAnBileYerHeid. Hence the financial incentive.
I think altruism is rare and usually because the surrogate is a family member or friend.

TripleHHH · 19/01/2021 21:48

Absolutely awful. Unfortunately, it’s quite common in India as well. British born Indians, who struggle to conceive, can pay women (mostly women living in poverty) in India to carry a child for them. I know several people who have done this. It’s not exclusive to British Asians but commonplace, especially as the costs are so low. You can ‘hire’ a surrogate for as little as £5000.

On another note, I can not believe this horrible woman is pushing for an abortion at 7 months. Given that my boys were born at 28 weeks, that has really hit me. Absolutely disgusting.

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2016/apr/01/outsourcing-pregnancy-india-surrogacy-clinics-julie-bindel

YouBoughtMeAWall · 19/01/2021 21:36

If it was surrogacy entirely within the UK, the surrogate doing it completely altruistically and getting paid nothing and the person who is going to be getting the baby (sorry I'm not sure of the exact terminology) then is it viewed as badly?

If there were enough women willing to do it under these circumstances then no one in the UK would be paying anyone anywhere for babies- but they are. So that tells you there aren’t enough women willing to do it for nothing - which tells you it isn’t an attractive prospect without a financial incentive. Which means they’re not doing it out of free choice.

EdgeOfACoin · 19/01/2021 21:35

Sadly, the State Department needs to address the problem within our own house, of granting citizenship to anchor babies.

But if surrogacy is illegal in China and the baby is not born on Chinese soil to a Chinese birth mother, would the Chinese government grant the baby citizenship?

And if the US changed course and refused to grant anchor babies citizenship, then the babies would be stateless. That would be against international human rights law.

MissBarbary · 19/01/2021 21:32

@AwaAnBileYerHeid

I don't really have an opinion either way on surrogacy but have seen a lot of opinions strongly against it on MN. If it was surrogacy entirely within the UK, the surrogate doing it completely altruistically and getting paid nothing and the person who is going to be getting the baby (sorry I'm not sure of the exact terminology) then is it viewed as badly?
Yes by most posters on here. I would ban it completely- in all circumstances. It's the ultimate "gimme, gimme, gimme.
FannyCann · 19/01/2021 21:30

AwaAnBileYerHeid

If you would like to learn more and find podcasts interesting to listen to I recommend this one, which is the first of three and covers most of the issues very clearly. It is from the USA, where things are quite different to the UK but moves are afoot to "update" UK surrogacy law, more in keeping with the USA, and also, as I said, this is a worldwide problem, it's not enough just to think oh well, in the UK it's fairly benign.

podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/free-birth-society/id1231912533?i=1000465605381

FannyCann · 19/01/2021 21:22

@PlantMam

then the children may well technically be American (born to American women within the US).

Babies born in the USA are USA citizens (or entitled to citizenship) which is another advantage of using an American surrogate mother.
The babies are known as "anchor babies" as this article explains.

With Surrogate Mothers, US Citizenship Is for Sale
by Jennifer Lahl, CBC President

The international surrogacyy market is fraught with problems, but one major problem that goes largely unnoticed is that U.S. citizenshipp is being bought and sold to international couples who hire U.S. surrogate mothers to carry their children to birth.
Here is a short primer on how one becomes a U.S. citizen. First, most Americans have birthright citizenship, meaning anyone born on U.S. soil is automatically deemed a citizen of the United States. Second, one can become a citizen through naturalization, which happens by going through the legal immigration steps, applying for citizenship, and having citizenship granted.
The 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution has as its first sentence the Citizenship Clausee_, which states, “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.”
But can you buy citizenship in the United States?
The answer is “Yes,” and it is quite easy and relatively affordable, all things considered. Babies born of U.S. surrogates to international couples are often referred to as anchor babies, because by virtue of being born in the United States, these children secure an anchor as citizens, afforded all the rights and benefits of that citizenship.
And those rights and benefits are many: the right to vote, the right to a U.S. passport, and most importantly, the right to “family unification,” or the provision of a pathway to citizenship for other family members who may want to come to the United States.
As Andy J. Semotiuk wrotee_ in Forbes, “Anchor babies, birth tourism, and surrogacy are pushing the envelope of what are the rights of citizenship in North America.”
Reproductive or birth tourism is a booming business. As one country cracks down on the buying and selling of eggs or sperm, or the renting of uteruses, the Big Fertility market shifts to accommodate the change.
For example, in China, all surrogacy is illegal, as is the sale of human eggs, so the Chinese flock to the United States to buy a baby. In fact, I have interviewed several U.S. surrogates who were contracted to carry babies for couples in China.
One whistleblower I spoke with worked for an agency in southern California and handled the VIP clients. When asked who those clients were, she said she worked solely with Chinese, who came with loads of cash to buy eggs and rent wombs.
She described to me how it wasn’t uncommon for the Chinese to hire two or three surrogates, and once their pregnancies were confirmed and the sex and health of the babies were determined, the couple would choose which pregnancy they wanted to continue and which ones they wanted to be terminated.
If that isn’t enough to say we need to stop this birth tourism industry, perhaps these storiess_ will be. A surrogacy attorney in New Jersey reported that a Chinese person approached her, wanting her to represent him in a U.S. surrogacy arrangement, but what didn’t seem right was this person wanted to hire five surrogates at the same time. In another case, the foreigner “wanted to keep two babies, and put the rest up for adoption,” according to a different surrogacy attorney.
With U.S. citizenship granted to five babies, three of which were going to be put up for adoption, most certainly to the highest bidder, it isn’t much of a leap to think of baby traffickingg rings. In fact, two women in Vietnamm were busted on a surrogacy baby-selling ring, selling babies to people in China.
And this practice works both ways.
In 2015, three individuals who ran a multimillion-dollar fertility agency in Irvine, California, were arrestedd_ “in the biggest federal criminal probe ever to target the thriving industry, in which pregnant women come to the United States to give birth so their children will become American citizens,” according to The New York Times.
The U.S. Department of State has a policyy_ on how U.S. couples who travel abroad to hire a foreign woman as a surrogate can be sure to have U.S. citizenship granted to their baby born of surrogacy in another country. Sadly, the State Department needs to address the problem within our own house, of granting citizenship to anchor babies.
As it stands, when surrogacy is involved, the child is used as a commodity, a means to an end, if you will, and that end is U.S. citizenship.

https://mailchi.mp/stopsurrogacynow/egg-freezing-parties-and-artificial-wombs-425150?e=63ad6d7206

ChakaDakotaRegina · 19/01/2021 21:19

Frighteningly cold. If she thinks you can the terminate at 7 months she’s obviously never bothered to even look at what pregnancy entails. Not even glanced at it.
And she’s just dropped the idea. Like an abandoned lockdown puppy.
Those poor women and poor babies.

FannyCann · 19/01/2021 21:14

If it was surrogacy entirely within the UK, the surrogate doing it completely altruistically and getting paid nothing and the person who is going to be getting the baby (sorry I'm not sure of the exact terminology) then is it viewed as badly?

I think one of the problems with this @AwaAnBileYerHeid is that the middle class woman in the UK who does this for their best friend or sister contributes to the general enthusiastic support for surrogacy in the media and the public. It does indeed seem fairly benign in the Uk (although there have been plenty of problem cases I could cite) because surrogacy in the UK remains fairly niche, the numbers are small, and in theory we do not have commercial surrogacy albeit "expenses" average around £15k with an increasing number topping £20K. Surrogate mothers are well cared for by the NHS and so there is a degree of protection. This drives the trade, and contributes to people seeking out cheaper destinations and poorer, more desperate women who will be paid considerably less and subject to these types of abuse.

But it's just like those middle class professionals who indulge in a bit of cocaine at their smart dinner parties. People who wouldn't dream of eating a battery farmed egg are completely ignorant of the harms of the cocaine trade (crime, damage to the Amazon rainforest, exploitation) and are equally ignorant of the widespread abuse of women and babies through surrogacy in other parts of the world.

I generally refer to the person who is getting the baby as a commissioning parent. They have, after all, commissioned a baby in a commercial deal.

Brood parasite is the name for species such as cuckoos who farm out the raising of their young. I suggest there is a correlation.

everythingcrossed · 19/01/2021 21:13

The way that the Times reported it suggested that it is definitely becoming a lifestyle choice among wealthy Chinese women - as others have pointed out, Zhang is only 29 but her career probably made a pregnancy difficult so she just splurged on a baby overseas - and why not have two while she's at it, get the whole motherhood thing out of the way? It was the entitlement and lack of feeling that horrified me - and it worries me that others see parenthood via surrogacy as a right rather than a responsibility. Those poor children and those poor women in the States who were left high and dry.

It's an appalling tale admittedly about the extreme end of surrogacy but the more that surrogacy is seen as a transaction, the more likely it is that people will "commission" babies and change their minds. The whole process appals me.

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ArabellaScott · 19/01/2021 21:01

Awa, it's deliberately breaking that bond of the mother/baby dyad that is so incredibly important. It's also commodifying both babies and women's bodies, whether or not money is involved. IMO.