Update from Allison Bailey

I was rather struck by the allegation that "Ms Bailey has also chaired Woman's Pace meetings which is regarded by many LGBT rights and anti-violence organisations to be a hate group". Presumably this refers to Woman's Place UK, but the person sending the email couldn't actually be bothered to check the name of WPUK, let alone the assertion made about them. Why on earth would a legal chambers take seriously this sort of assertion? That unnamed 'anti-violence organisations' regard WPUK to be a hate group is in no way evidence that they are and I wouldn't expect any legal outfit to give such an allegation the time of day.

Ah the lesser spotted trans legal rights

Many have referred to these trans legal rights being removed but no one can actually tell you what specifically these legal rights are that are (allegedly) being removed

Self ID is not a legal right & gender identity is not a protected characteristic

The Stonewall email is an interesting read.

They complain Alison is accusing Stonewall of intimidation - in an email to her employers aimed at getting her disciplined. What is that if not intimidation!

But more concerning is the framing of opposition to Self-ID as “calling for trans people to lose their current legal rights”. I’ve seen this elsewhere and it’s StoneLaw at its finest, isn’t it!

There's another update this morning. Allison's published the text of the complaint by Stonewall, and her response to the complaint investigation by Garden Court. Available here: allisonbailey.co.uk/updates/update-5-breaking-exclusive/

This lady works for Stonewall - haha - what a surprise!

I didn't even read the article. Just how deceitful is that. Newspapers are so lazy now. They take any old crap that they think makes them look in touch.

But they funny thing is they never take the press releases from women's groups.

Yeah that’s it ty! Duno why I couldn’t find it when I looked for it again.

And yes re the strategicly placed articles- that’s why I wanted to mention it on this thread because it felt v much like that, and a fair bit felt like lies. Obviously I remembered the Eddie izzard part slightly wrong, but it doesn’t for a second sound believable that anyone at eddies performance would challenge anyone this claimed. It just feels false, and even when it comes to lies in print I think gut instinct is often right.

I found everything in the article very strategic. That the discussion is about her rights (it’s not it’s all women’s rights) that those of us arguing against self Id are the ones trampling over lesbians (because lesbians feel being confused for a man erasure but the cotton ceiling inclusive??) the call for disabled people, gcn women and trans people to fill in the consultation (but not us ‘feminine’ women) the idea any woman whose not ‘feminine’ is being challenged on entering toilets (because women who wear skirts, have long hair and wear make up do so 100% of the time...) and the idea that people can’t tell whose male or female because we all identify others on whether they fit the toilet pic with skirt or trousers (even a seconds confusion becomes obvious when someone talks or moves) or the idea that ‘butch’ women women would be confusing for us (tw are the ones who choose long hair, make up, skirts and heels because of their ‘inner female essence’ or whatever the fuck, so obviously it’s not butch women who are confusing anyone).

It read very much like scripted gas lighty head fuckery and felt very much placed to counter the cases calling out stonewalls lack of support/blatant betrayal. Feels very much like a slight of hand.

Thanks for the article Stumbledin. This lady works for Stonewall and during the last two years has noticed a mysterious increase in her being challenged (sometimes by men seeing her go into the ladies) for using the women’s toilets.

I wonder if she can possibly think of why things might have changed over the last two years?? Could it have anything to do with Stonewall campaigning for male born people to use the ladies as well??

Accusations that butch lesbians have a tough time in women's loos and this will make it worse.

I wonder what her solution to this might be (RH, while being quite butch is unmistakably female) - do we a) make it clear that anyone that may or may not look like a man can use the women’s toilets, leaving the door wide open for abuse of all who are in there or b) repair the ‘social contract’ that she and people like her have damaged so much to say that all male people are excluded from women’s toilets, making it much safer to assume that the person who looks a bit butch is actually a woman which will be verified with a second glance at most.

I honestly can’t imagine mistaking any butch lesbians for a man. I have known many over the years and it is so obvious that they are just a butch version of female, not male.

I think people forget that real life encounters are not like photos. A while back I took my car to the garage. Stood to the right of me at the reception was a person in mechanics overalls and very cropped hair, at first glance my brain read male (no doubt a mental bias due to the setting I was in) but as soon as she moved and spoke it was plainly obvious she was a woman.

Article re butch lesbians and toilets inews.co.uk/news/uk/butch-lesbian-public-toilet-women-abuse-government-review-gender-neutral-facilities-833787

This is obviously a strategically based article to sway consultation on toilets.

As someone who monitors news feeds (for volunteer work not mumsnet!) it is astonishing how every day there are well placed stories about the terrible time trans people are having and how it is all the fault of gender critical feminists.

So I know we celebrate when The Times or some other right wing paper prints a more pro sex rights article (thank goodness there are some!) but in terms of the daily news noise these are drowned out by the daily torrent of victimised trans stories.

It is very very disheartening.

Stonewall et al may well exploit feelings of upset about the first to generate anxiety about the potential for the latter in order to garner support for the cause, they are incredibly cynical.

Very true. The idea that lesbians are being mistaken for transwomen because women are campaigning for single sex spaces is laughable.

I have such a poor memory for faces I can’t tell if that’s her or not from that pic. However whoever wrote it was very visabley female imo anyways, despite self description as a bitch lesbian. I’ve never actually met a ‘butch lesbian’ whose sex I was confused about, even before they spoke or I saw how they moved. So I had equal scepticism.

Also the worst violence the person claimed to have met was - at an Eddie Izzard performance no less (which had to be made up) someone shouted loudly that a man was going into the women’s loos. While some women may be uncomfortable at being referred to as a man I doubt any would term it violence or threatening. It’s a simple am I fuck. I doubt many ‘butch lesbians’ live in fear of being called a man (because of us bad bad women).

If it was Ruth Hunt I think she’s frankly talking rubbish. Ruth hunt here with sadiq Khan & munroe bergdorf. It’s completely obvious Ruth hunt despite their clothes is a woman, MB is a TW & sadiq Khan is a man

Squeaky I don't think it was Ruth Hunt. Her view is that we might as well get rid of single-sex spaces because men will always rape women.

Anyways, was wondering if this article and others like it are gearing up to get more attention aimed against the support for cases like Alison’s.

There's been quite a bit of that on here from some usual suspects. Accusations that butch lesbians have a tough time in women's loos and this will make it worse. I honestly think a) there's a difference between homophobia in a public setting which I am sure many butch lesbians have experienced and b) your average woman actually mistaking a butch lesbian for an actual man and hounding them out of the ladies. Stonewall et al may well exploit feelings of upset about the first to generate anxiety about the potential for the latter in order to garner support for the cause, they are incredibly cynical.

I’m terrible with putting names to faces.... but I read an article today that I can’t find now-suggested by iPhone news updates- in inews from someone from stonewall talking about how as a butch lesbian they are now at risk of violence entering women’s toilets because of women fighting self id laws- is that Ruth Hunt?

I couldn’t find it when I went back to check something and came here to see if there was a thread about it- it was very ‘an arguement that is supposed to be about my rights (as in women’s/lesbian rights)’ has basically caused this. It’s all hyperbolic bs and seemed like a very flimsy attention seeking attack on women. Anyways, was wondering if this article and others like it are gearing up to get more attention aimed against the support for cases like Alison’s.

Good luck Allison

Thanks @OvaHere, that article and comments are interesting. There does seem to have been a big change in direction since 2014.

Good luck Alison - solidarity ❤️

On standby to do more digging, Allison - please keep us posted.

Posh dinners at a luxury hotel owned by people who execute gays was always going to look bad

Well yes, quite!

“I’ve got no problem with how people feel, they can feel how they want,” Hunt insists. “It’s how people act that I’m desperately concerned about. I am not interested in being the thought police.”

This quote from that article always tickles me. She soon changed her mind.

it seems back in 2014 she faced a better reception from the T than from the G

My impression at the time was that the ropey reception from some gay people only followed a number of gaffs that gave them concerns she was a toff playing at being a campaigner. Posh dinners at a luxury hotel owned by people who execute gays was always going to look bad.

The headline alone is quite ironic.

Reading some of the commentary I have wondered if at least part of the reason she veered Stonewall into being a trans organisation is that she didn't want to deal with some of the complex and thorny issues that a lot of gay men felt the org should be focusing on. Or deal with some of the men who didn't seem thrilled that a woman was appointed.

I'm fairly sure it was mostly the lure of more money coming into the charity but it seems back in 2014 she faced a better reception from the T than from the G.

www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2014/nov/21/ruth-hunt-stonewall-interview-not-interested-in-being-thought-police

Good luck Alison!! With you all the way!

If Alison wins against Stonewall they will be legally sanctioned for orchestrating a campaign of harassment against an individual.

Between that and the Bell judgement there will be irrefutable evidence of two of the main feminist complaints which were always claimed to be lies. I think this is a bigger deal than it first appears.

Best of luck Alison.