Men's rights to single sex spaces?

Yes I believe they do.

The crucial difference is: women won’t be desperate to enter those spaces or try to erode the meaning of word “man” purely in order to gain access to them

Men have the right to sex segregated spaces themselves. Speaking to dp he doesn't have an issue with sharing with transwomen as they are biological males and generally it's pretty obvious that they are. He doesn't have an issue with sharing with transmen, but, from his perspective, it's often clear they are biological women and his discomfort stems from fearing that they are not safe / comfortable in a male space. Obviously that's the perspective of one male.

Absolutely they have the right to privacy same as women.

Men have the right to privacy and dignity as much as women.
Agreed. I particularly feel for teenage boys who can be unbelievably self conscious, and I'd like to see more men speak up for them.

That’s interesting Inebriati. So both sexes would be discriminated against, as well as the service provider being in breach of the Equally Act 2010 in terms of Religion. Not much evidence of Equality Impact Assessments being completed.

Am I right in thinking that mixed-sex toilets are therefore both Islamophobic and Anti-Semitic?

What would the full list of religious discrimination look like? This sounds very exclusionary in a supposedly multi-cultural society.

As far as I’m aware the religious issues with women not being allowed to change near men etc affect only women not men- so if a ftm walked into the men’s other men wouldn’t be in breach of their religious rules iirc

Thats not the case.

I’ve often thought that one of the things that might shut this all gender toilet shit down is if men wake up to the fact that they will be at risk of so—called called false accusations.

Because of course nearly ALL rape and sexual assaults allegations are made by bitter women to punish innocent men. Once they realise that they will be affected then y won’t be so keen to give away their rights on a plate.

Men aren’t at risk from women the way we are from men. As far as I’m aware the religious issues with women not being allowed to change near men etc affect only women not men- so if a ftm walked into the men’s other men wouldn’t be in breach of their religious rules iirc (although I haven’t checked in detail so perhaps this is an issue).

I would imagine the likes of preteen/teen boys would not be always comfortable with changing along side mtf, but otherwise I can’t imagine many men are overly concerned with mtf trans people in their spaces. Other than concern for the woman herself and the worry over needing to physically defend her if other men attacked her. Plenty of men aren’t violent or confrontational or comfortable with physical violence with other men. It’s not ok they’d be left in that position of potentially getting beaten up or letting a woman get attacked. That would likely be a significant concern of many men.

Single sex exceptions come into play with many other things too- would men be ok being unable to request a male hcp for a prostrate exam or for personal care if their age or disabilities required them to need someone to bath and toilet them? Would men who have been sexually assaulted be comfortable with their men’s support group now including women? When discussing very personal aspects of that or aspects that are specific only to men? Teen boys taking cage fighting classes where fights are separated by sex suddenly being expected to using equal force on a physically female teen girl maybe be significantly uncomfortable. Toilets and changing rooms aren’t the only thing single sex remaining single sex influences.

Women have women only toilets for reasons of biology, privacy and safety. Men never miscarry or deal with period flooding, so shouldn't use the women's toilets as women have the right to expect privacy.

‘Privacy’ also means something different if you are female because men don’t need to undress to urinate.

Do men have the same "sex based" rights as women?
Yes, sex is a protected characteristic. So men have sex-based rights, for example;

• A men only support group for male cancers.
• Protection against discrimination at work on the grounds of sex. (There are exemptions, so for example if you are a disabled woman and you advertise for a female carer, that is not discriminating against men.)

what is the problem with transmen and transwomen using a joint men/trans toilet and leaving the female toilet for women only?
Trans activists don't want this, they want the validation of using the toilet of their choice.

Toilets are separated on the grounds of sex, not gender identity. so people should use the toilet that corresponds with their sex. Women have women only toilets for reasons of biology, privacy and safety. Men never miscarry or deal with period flooding, so shouldn't use the women's toilets as women have the right to expect privacy.

Incidentally, there aren't any known records of assaults by men on trans women using mens toilets. There are multiple incidents of trans women and men assaulting and spying on women in womens and mixed sex toilets.

The Equality Act and the Gender Recognition Act are published online, and they are worth reading.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/contents

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/contents

I think you'll find the third space option to be thoroughly rejected by tra so it's not really an option. It is however, quite telling on why these demands are being made.
It's taken DH 10 years to come to terms with the physical evidence my period brings. 10 years ago he couldn't even bring himself to say the word tampon. I don't think a male toilet is thus the best place for a transman when the female body makes them that uncomfortable.
Obviously, we should work towards dismantling the disgust at women's body functions as it is inherently sexist, but I don't think taking away men's privacy and confronting them with our reality is the way to do it.

But legally I believe that there is no law prohibiting a man from entering the ladies toilets.

There is no general law prohibiting anyone from entering a toilet (just as there are no laws that prevent under 21s entering night clubs).

However, there are laws that make it legal in some circumstances to prevent a person from entering a space on the basis of sex or age.

Men should have the right to single sex spaces and services. When my father was frail disabled and in hospital he responded much better to male nurses and carers. Not a bit because he was sexist in any way but because he was an old school gentleman respectful of women and to him he felt very uncomfortable receiving intimate care from female staff because he felt bad that they had to do it and he was far more willing to receive mobility help from a younger man and also ask them for help and admit he needed assistance. Whereas he would struggle on rather than ask a slightly built female carer or nurse for help . And every male friend of mine would feel very concerned and embarrassed if a transman entered the gents and would be concerned for their welfare and safety and certainly would not feel comfortable in any way in a changing room where they or the transman were naked especially a young teenager. Decent men respect other people’s boundaries

Men have the right to privacy and dignity as much as women.

There have been a couple of men's mental health support groups set up after a spate of suicides locally. It's amazing how much support they have received but the single sex female group was repeatedly asked "but what about men" when they set up shop.

Yes there should be, even though the impact of a male-only space being accessed by a woman is more than likely much less than a women-only space being accessed by a man.

To some extent the FtM is protected by the very unexpectedness of the behaviour. You could say the men's toilets is the last place a predatory male might be expecting targets to be.

It's a "surprise!" mixed-sex situation for the male, unlike a male going into a female toilet, or an officially mixed-sex toilet.

Biggest danger would be someone following the FtM in. That would be a waving a red flag to them - "a lone female entering a male toilet that I can also enter without suspicion? Let's go have a look see if anyone else is in there..."

Well put Mole.

Even if FtM transitioners used the Men's because they chose to, it's still disrespectful as well as potentially dangerous.

Can't imagine a young FtM, fresh out of college could stand up to many 30+ year old men who might not be woke enough to accept what's going on. Some of those men might get violent.

Given that the 15 year old female will be very obviously female this could be very upsetting for some men as well as putting the female in danger.

How to predict how a man who is distressed or embarrassed by this invasion of his privacy might react in these circumstances? Some might get aggressive. Others, as reported in an earlier thread (someone else might remember where to find it) would act protectively.

In the incident mentioned in a previous thread, a young teenager presented herself at the urinal next to a man and inserted a She-Wee into her trousers. IIRC the man took his time washing his hands to make sure she was safe until she left. I think this was daytime in a town toilet rather than a nightclub, which is a more likely setting for socially transgressive behaviour.

This sort of behaviour by young females is both risky and profoundly disrespectful, just as disrespectful as men using The Ladies. That applies whether the girl/woman is using a urinal in The Gents because she thinks she is a boy/man or because there is a long queue for The Ladies.

I hold my hand up and confess that I have occasionally dived into a cubicle in an unoccupied Gents Toilets in desperation but it takes things to a different level to stroll up next to a strange man using the urinals and nonchalantly whip out a SheWee.

If a man might be prosecuted under the Public Order Act 1986 for causing distress to women, by entering The Ladies and rummaging in his flies in full view of any woman present, then there should be no reason why an obvious female should not be prosecuted for doing the same in The Gents.

^www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1986/64/section/5^

I think many (most?) people, male and female, would not regard it as a sign of “bigotry” (yawn) to suggest that a girl/young woman routinely using public urinals might be deserving of compassion and in need of psychological help, rather than applause for “bravery”.

I don’t disagree with some of your points, but I still believe most FtM individuals will prefer to use the toilet of their chosen sex.

My point was that it’s not so much that ‘some people suggest’ they should use these spaces as the fact that they themselves want to use them.

Given how many men who are neither disabled nor have a child with them who go onto use the disabled/family public toilets, I don't think even men want to use the men's toilets.

My husband says he would not at all feel comfortable sharing toilets and gym changing rooms with teenage FtM transitioners.

Someone on here once mentioned - though I don't know how true it is - that female to male transitioners usually apply for a key to access the disabled toilets. I think the poster said it was a bit of a rite of passage.

Another poster said that she had the job of allocating shared dorm rooms to university students. FtM students were usually clear about their trans status when they applied for residence so they could be allocated their own room. (This was not often the case with FtM transitioners, apparently.)

The impression I have is that FtM transitioners are less likely to want access to male-only spaces. We can all speculate as to the reasons why.

How to predict how a man who is distressed or embarrassed by this invasion of his privacy might react in these circumstances? Some might get aggressive. Others, as reported in an earlier thread (someone else might remember where to find it) would act protectively.

In the incident mentioned in a previous thread, a young teenager presented herself at the urinal next to a man and inserted a She-Wee into her trousers. IIRC the man took his time washing his hands to make sure she was safe until she left. I think this was daytime in a town toilet rather than a nightclub, which is a more likely setting for socially transgressive behaviour.

This sort of behaviour by young females is both risky and profoundly disrespectful, just as disrespectful as men using The Ladies. That applies whether the girl/woman is using a urinal in The Gents because she thinks she is a boy/man or because there is a long queue for The Ladies.

I hold my hand up and confess that I have occasionally dived into a cubicle in an unoccupied Gents Toilets in desperation but it takes things to a different level to stroll up next to a strange man using the urinals and nonchalantly whip out a SheWee.

If a man might be prosecuted under the Public Order Act 1986 for causing distress to women, by entering The Ladies and rummaging in his flies in full view of any woman present, then there should be no reason why an obvious female should not be prosecuted for doing the same in The Gents.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1986/64/section/5

I think many (most?) people, male and female, would not regard it as a sign of “bigotry” (yawn) to suggest that a girl/young woman routinely using public urinals might be deserving of compassion and in need of psychological help, rather than applause for “bravery”.

Yes, men can set up single-sex spaces like women if it can be justified. There are mental health support groups that are for men only. They may decide they don't want trans men included because it's a space for men to discuss sensitive issues and most males wouldn't be comfortable discussing it if females were around.

Women have the right to privacy and dignity for their own safety. Men have the right to privacy and dignity for parity.