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Original poster

Silence of the Lambs etc - are TRAs fighting historic battles?

138 replies

UndyingDeathdefying · 12/01/2021 08:58

I watched this the other night and was pretty shocked by the transphobia......

It made me think about all the TRA posts justifying behaviour by saying “X happens to trans people, therefore they are uniquely vulnerable, therefore those asking questions are wrong”

Looking at old films (Crocodile Dundee was another) it’s clear that society used to have carte Blanche to mock and humiliate transsexuals and to infer criminality.

There is often talk here of the TRAs being led by older men. Well, a man of 50 would have watched both the films I mention above as a teenager. It must have felt degrading and humiliating.

It might explain the sense of “mission” and the clear feeling that the ends justify the means. Just a thought.

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Original poster
UndyingDeathdefying · 12/01/2021 14:22

"I doubt many of the teenage boys watching the films in the 80s knew they were going be trans in their mid 50s. "

.... ah yes there is that too.... my premise relies on the idea that you know you are trans as a teenager....hmmm.
thanks for your replies and I will check in after work.

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HecatesCats · 12/01/2021 14:22

@UndyingDeathdefying

"I'd be looking more closely at the influence of patriarchy and misogyny in the context of siloed online communities, some of which revolve around sexist computer anime and fictionalised violence and which perpetuate certain views and memes."

thank you - if you are able to point to a link that would be appreciated.

There are numerous subreddits which propagate misogyny, if you want to do some research, but I'm not linking here. You'll be surprised to learn that T*rf is a slur used against women on many such forums. You don't actually need to get to deep into Reddit, just pop it into the search function on Twitter and you'll find any number of anime avatars happily casting misogynistic slurs like that around.
RedDogsBeg · 12/01/2021 14:22

Our inconsistency is you sound like you are looking for ways to justify and excuse their behaviour, you want to be understanding, they must have felt degraded and humiliated, they are hurt by their portrayal, etc., etc. To me that sounds uncomfortably close to victim blaming and is the same sort of tripe excuses trotted out regularly by abusers.

Original poster
UndyingDeathdefying · 12/01/2021 14:21

"The point is, there are plenty of depictions of various peoples which are less than flattering and many which downright demeaning on film."

You're saying that many groups experience such negative treatment but don't turn on women? so there must be other things at play?

yes- I follow. thanks.

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Original poster
UndyingDeathdefying · 12/01/2021 14:20

Just to say I will follow up on the point about the closed social media communities.
My lunch break is finished so I have to return to work.

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Original poster
UndyingDeathdefying · 12/01/2021 14:17

" RedDogs, if you have read such an argument, it was not put foward by me.

It sounds like exactly what you are saying."

Well then you've misunderstood me or I've been unclear or both. It happens.

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WarOnWomen · 12/01/2021 14:17

I'm not asking anything of you, I was just wondering about how TRAs come to be as they after seeing this film from my early teens which stimulated some half-thoughts.

You forgot to mention Dressed to Kill, OP.

You are looking at historical documents with a 2021 perspective. The attitudes were of it's time and I doubt many of the teenage boys watching the films in the 80s knew they were going be trans in their mid 50s.

Let's look at how women are portrayed on film. The tropes that keep on giving: the hooker with the heart of gold, the dirty old woman, the exotic Asian/Latina etc, the boring wife/girlfriend, the cold ice queen. The list is endless.

I'm not even going to go into racial tropes and film.

The point is, there are plenty of depictions of various peoples which are less than flattering and many which downright demeaning on film.

Original poster
UndyingDeathdefying · 12/01/2021 14:16

"Strange how they don't target the ones who produced the films and books that made them, according to you, feel so terribly degraded and humiliated, funny how they kick down and wreak punishment on a class already oppressed."

I don't dispute what you say. I think that most bullies have been bullied and so yes they then tend to bully themselves and obviously look for someone vulnerable.

I don't think we are inconsistent with each other.

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RedDogsBeg · 12/01/2021 14:16

@UndyingDeathdefying

RedDogs, if you have read such an argument, it was not put foward by me.
It sounds like exactly what you are saying.
RedDogsBeg · 12/01/2021 14:12

no, I don't. I just think people reach a point for a reason and I'm interested in that.

Reach a point that they feel justified to launch an all out war on women and their rights, safety, privacy and dignity to target women for abuse and threats when women are not responsible for them reaching that point? Strange how they don't target the ones who produced the films and books that made them, according to you, feel so terribly degraded and humiliated, funny how they kick down and wreak punishment on a class already oppressed.

Original poster
UndyingDeathdefying · 12/01/2021 14:12

"I'd be looking more closely at the influence of patriarchy and misogyny in the context of siloed online communities, some of which revolve around sexist computer anime and fictionalised violence and which perpetuate certain views and memes."

thank you - if you are able to point to a link that would be appreciated.

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Original poster
UndyingDeathdefying · 12/01/2021 14:10

Just replying to hedders' thoughtful post below, I guess I wonder more generally whether the shaming and mockery from my childhood/teenage years and the efforts to shrug that off has led people to bad consequences.

"I'm not sure this take is helpful, OP, as the causal link you are suggesting just isn't working very well. (Silence of the Lambs being about a serial killer and not transsexualism, as it would have been referred to then.)

I agree with you that it is always important to put yourself in someone else's shoes, trying to understand her or him, even if you profoundly disagree. Social phenomena have complex causes, though, and I struggle to see how a number of films from the 1980s and 90s can explain the actions of male middle-aged transitioners today. Other factors (revolution in the ways in which people access pornography, the rise of the LGBT movement, much more representation of women in politics and workplaces etc.) seem more important, and I think that was the point of other posters, too.

The Silence of the Lambs is a genuinely haunting movie, a well-executed psychological thriller, a masterpiece even, with stellar performances. I'd hate to see it reduced to one issue that has only recently become mainstream and highly politicised."

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HecatesCats · 12/01/2021 14:09

I just think people reach a point for a reason and I'm interested in that.

I'd be looking more closely at the influence of patriarchy and misogyny in the context of siloed online communities, some of which revolve around sexist computer anime and fictionalised violence and which perpetuate certain views and memes. I think a teenager telling a woman to die in a greasefire because she believes biological sex is real is unlikely to be doing that because of silence of the lambs.

Original poster
UndyingDeathdefying · 12/01/2021 14:08

RedDogs, if you have read such an argument, it was not put foward by me.

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Original poster
UndyingDeathdefying · 12/01/2021 14:06

I take your point Samphire.

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RedDogsBeg · 12/01/2021 14:04

WaronWomen, exactly, to justify TRA's wholesale assault on women's rights, their abuse and threats to women on the basis of a film in the 80's which wasn't produced, directed or written by a woman, based on a book not written by a woman, based on a real life character that wasn't a woman, is one of the more ludicrous arguments I've ever had the misfortune to read.

To say nothing of the fact that the OP by describing/deciding the film in question as transphobic has totally missed the entire premise and point of the film.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 12/01/2021 13:59

I just think people reach a point for a reason and I'm interested in that. Then read round some of the older threads. There are a lot about various trans individuals whose stated purpose is to duisprupt the daily life of women.

Raed Stonewall's missions statement which includes the removal of sex as a protected characteristic, removing all single sex provision.

But most of all, maybe find a SM space where trans people discuss their lives and ask them!

Gottalife · 12/01/2021 13:58

@Lammergeier

I think Ed Gein, who Buffalo Bill was based on, would fit comfortably under the trans umbrella these days.
I have never really understood the "trans umbrella". Gender dysphoric people have nothing in common with transvestites, crossdressers and fetishists. GD is a body and mind dysphoria thing that is very real to sufferers. It is rare and needs a proper medical diagnosis which probably explains why there are only about 5 thousand on the Gender Recognition Register.
Original poster
UndyingDeathdefying · 12/01/2021 13:56

"you think TRA's are justified in their abuse and threats"

no, I don't. I just think people reach a point for a reason and I'm interested in that.

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Original poster
UndyingDeathdefying · 12/01/2021 13:54

WarOnWomen I accept what you say. Thanks for answering.

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WarOnWomen · 12/01/2021 13:52

@HecatesCats

I think the general tenor on this board is to understand a little less and condemn a little more

Why do women need to be more understanding about the aggressive tactics I've described in my earlier post?

I would add to this and say what difference does it make if we do understand? Their actions are still the same and it's actions that matter. As Hecates says TRAs continue to abuse and threaten. Our women's rights are still being eroded.

RedDogsBeg · 12/01/2021 13:51

I must have my thick head on today because I haven't a fucking clue what point you are trying to make, OP, talking in soundbites and quotes from previous Prime Ministers, telling everyone who disagrees with you that they are not curious enough, with a patronising "you may choose to put your focus elsewhere".

All I can take from your witterings is that you think TRA's are justified in their abuse and threats because a couple of films in the 80's might have made them feel humiliated and degraded, by that token I can go around and make death threats and be hideously abusive because there are millions of films, TV programmes, books and plays that are degrading and humiliating to women and I get a free pass, jolly good.

Original poster
UndyingDeathdefying · 12/01/2021 13:50

"If you are not asking women to budge up what are you asking? "

I'm not asking anything of you, I was just wondering about how TRAs come to be as they after seeing this film from my early teens which stimulated some half-thoughts. And I accept that sometimes there are good reasons not to give one's energy to thinking about opponent's point of view.

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CuriousaboutSamphire · 12/01/2021 13:45

@UndyingDeathdefying

"But that doesn't mean that I have thrown friends under a bus whenever I condemn TRA actions, changes in legislation that undemine the safety and dignity of women!"

.... and that's fine.

Thanks!!!! I feel so much better now!
CuriousaboutSamphire · 12/01/2021 13:44

And think about the John Major context before you reverse his meaning. !!!

I was disgareeing woth your interpretation .. and the blanket application of said speech!

If you are not asking women to budge up what are you asking?

Maybe read the rest of my post and have a think on that!