To ask Radical Feminists about their views on BDSM?

Rad fem here.

It’s important to realise that whatever decisions we make are not made in a vacuum. We are shaped by society. A patriarchal society.

I used to be a lib fem. whatever a woman chooses to do is a feminist action.

Then I realised that was BS. In general, if it doesn’t upset the patriarchy, it’s probably not actually feminism. If it’s ‘fun feminism’, that happens to give men what they want/like, it’s probably not feminism. Yeah, we’ve got choices but we can’t claim these choices so much for the rights of and respect for women as a sex class. Therefore sex work (prostitution), corsets (yes, I have one from my lib fem days), burlesque, BDSM, etc are not feminist and serve the patriarchy well.

Incidentally there was a brilliant article on Quilette about woke edgy activities in Hackney Wick (shibari, liquid love, naked yoga) and how they are just wank-fests for leftist men. You rarely see men getting tied up in shibari. It’s woke misogyny and perving.

Anyhow, I get turned on by some low level BDSM. I look hot in bright red Chanel lipstick. I’d be offered threesomes when I wore the corset. But I can’t pretend it’s feminist. It’s buying in to the patriarchy.

I wonder if liberal feminism would be pro-choice on foot binding if some women claimed it was empowering?

(Rambling. Should be asleep. Oops).

'Ravishment' means rape. 'forceful sex' means rape.

I think a natural power play between partners is normal and healthy.

I think violent BDSM is females socialised into it, completely wrong and the BDSM porn is a mask for violence against women. I think any consensual interaction of course can’t be stopped but should be subject to independently verified contracts. Because the criminal justice system is fucked by men claiming consent and men are twisted by the porn and use it as an excuse. As a survivor or an abhorrent extremely niche practices BDSM rape, when I have zero interest in BDSM I can tell you the police and CPS never hold them accountable because of the protests from the BDSM community. To protect the many, the few should have to jump through hoops.

@BeeDeeEssEm here you go, this was the article I read...

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/inews.co.uk/opinion/why-some-women-fantasise-about-forceful-sex-and-why-thats-nothing-to-be-ashamed-of-212098/amp

PoleToPole thank you. I think it's very sad some women get sucked into this shit. In a effort to be cool. Or simply because they feel they cannot say no. And if they do die, they really cannot say anything.

Must go to bed. Night all. Stay safe.

"But all of that cultural stuff is taking a back seat at the moment because of the legal changes around choking due to the women who have died."

So true Stripesnomore.

There was a webaite called something like We didn't consent to this. Terrible reading. All women killed by men who got to write the story after the woman's death.

I think it's more than a nasty grubby little part of life. It's men getting away with it with age old she asked for it

Thank you, and sadly that is an uncannily accurate guess Italiangreyhound, I have to say personally I find it revolting. I cannot see how anyone could see the damage, day in day out, and not find it revolting.

So does that suggest that domination is not considered BDSM or part of it? E.g. if there's domination in bed as you've put it, how would that be described other than BDSM?

I don't think it's described as anything other than domination, really?

It's a bit like how couples can sit on their sofa and bitch together about a movie, and even make a post about it on facebook, but they're not film critics, are they?

Or how I enjoy drawing but I don't define myself as an artist.

So you can get off on being tied up but you don't have to say you are "into BDSM". Or define yourself as being "into BDSM".

I once read a study that said one of the most common fantasies for females is "ravishment". So if I had to take a guess I'd say there were a fair amount of couples role playing exactly that in a safe and loving environment... and even though that involves one partner dominating and one partner submitting I don't think it's BDSM. It's not a lifestyle choice... it's just a sexual fantasy.

PoleToPole excellent post. You have hit the nail on the head. I bet most (all) the serious injuries you see are women hurt at the hands of me. And those that are men have done it to themselves, and not suffered at the hands of a woman. Just a guess!

My genuinely parting comment this time - why not go retro. I'm sure whenever I turned the TV on after 10pm in the 90s there was BDSM on TV. Didn't Louis Theroux do a documentary, or was it Nick Bloomfield.

Also in the interests of feminism and equality you're only talking about men dominating women. Maybe look up femdom instead - that way you get a balanced view.

Farewell!

But I think we are in agreement OP. BDSM refers to everyone into those acts, not a ‘community.’

It's the fetishisation of male sexual violence against women. Even when it's done in a same sex couple or there's a female 'domme' or whatever it's still based on the same shit.

How can you fight your oppression if you've been taught to get off on it?

It isn’t a matter of avoiding them. It’s like I read books but I am not in a book club, don’t plan to be and don’t look up their thoughts.

Most people getting tied to the bed or whatever aren’t going to join a special community.

Terracottasaur excellent post

I think the level of violence and the feelings rellated to oneself must be very important. So, for example, if you can only get aroused, or mostly get aroused, by inflicting pain or having pain inflicted (or fear) I'd say that does say something very worrying and negative about your view of your 'self'.

If I found myself in that category, I'd seek help. If I were dating someone like that, I'd run a mile.

I am a feminist but I don't think anyone would call me radical.

I think you can gravitate to what is near you. So the more one hangs around with people for whom this
is a turn on, and engages with it, the more it becomes normal. The depreciating returns thing means maybe the violence gets more as time goes on, too.

To get that adrenaline hit.

If that is how people want to spend their time, they can but I do worry it is a lonely, negative route, and most likely not at all consensual for some.

Nah.

Ok Ill bite. Im a surgeon, not in the UK, but I used to work in a big city. I grew utterly sick of being consulted on a weekly basis about serious injuries women came in with that were as a result of "rough" sex, or BDSM, whatever you want to call it.

It seems to be a growing thing that women are expected to be into this, and people seem all too willing to downplay the risks of long term injury.

You are looking at a situation where safety relies on people showing careful and conscious restraint, but when they are more likely than ever to get distracted or loose control. Or where they just don`t give a fuck despite giving lip service otherwise beforehand.

An awful lot more harm happens than its advocates would have you believe.

There is definitely a group of people who consider themselves to be the BDSM community.

But the vast majority of people who are interested in or participate in bondage, submission and domination or sado masochism are not part of that community or are interested in or subject to that community’s morality, guidelines or rules.

As a feminist I think that porn is pretty terrible, not because it's porn but because of the way its made and distributed. That there aren't good standards for safety and wellbeing - mostly towards the women involved. Look at someone like August Ames. So many terrible stories and so many very young women. Plus porn is very male centred - on male pleasure. I'm not saying women don't enjoy it, but it's not made for women.

I don't see them as the same thing.

"I know a lot of my friendship circle are into choking / physical restrainment / various forms of sensory play etc"

Isn't all sex 'sensory play'?

Anyway, I'll leave you to it. Stay safe!

BDSM is Bondage, Dominance, Sado-Masochism - rough & degrading can maybe play into that? Not necessarily gimp suits but I know a lot of my friendship circle are into choking / physical restrainment / various forms of sensory play etc. If these aren't part of BDSM consider me thoroughly misinformed!

It's confusing (I think).... yes BDSM stands for those words but it seems to have taken on a whole new meaning which centres around a community type thing with a set of rules.

BDSM (in the community sense, with safewords and rules and whips and chains etc) is generally pretty cringey to most people I know in my age group (20s).

However you are correct that most of my friends (20s) want to be dominated in bed.

BUT there is a succinct difference.

I'm in a lot of smutty romance book groups and some of them are "darker" and people ask for all types of fucked up stuff with no judgement (it's one of the rules)... rough sex / dubious consent / spanking / toxically jealous "hero's" etc but with huge disclaimers saying NO BDSM!!! 🤷🏻‍♀️ they want it to happen as the fantasy, not having a fantasy about two people roleplaying their fantasy (does that make any sense??? 😂).

I don't know loads about BDSM to be honest, but watching a lot of porn and then letting your partner choke you I don't think is anything more than that.

I think BDSM is more of an exploration of the dynamics between a couple, their bodies and different ways of experiencing pleasure. Like you say it's often a community thing and rather than worrying about what feminists think. I'd say that if you're not sure about something related to BDSM far better to reach out to them.