To ask Radical Feminists about their views on BDSM?

It develops our expectations, trains our brains into what we find romantic/sexy.

I totally agree with this. I remember reading Twilight as a young person and thinking it was so romantic. Having since been in an abusive relationship I now find it incredibly disturbing. It's romanticising an extreme power imbalance where the woman is at the mercy of a dominating male and is interpreting his constant violation of boundaries as the ultimate expression of love. This is such a dangerous message to be sending young women.

Gosh, so many great posts on here.

From the article "internalised ‘romance’ narratives that eroticise female submissiveness and male dominance."

This is a huge issue for me. So many novels now involve men sexually dominating women. It develops our expectations, trains our brains into what we find romantic/sexy.
So many films and books portray as romantic behaviour which is creepy, stalkerish and abusive.
There's a lot of 'abusive man saved by love of a good woman' stuff as well.

It all trains young women up to be abused by men. I fell for it hook line and sinker, my erotic life is based on those narratives, but as an adult having given it considerable thought, it's shocking.

I have no issue with BDSM, between adults who have freely chosen to explore that element of their relationship- not because their partner will leave or seek sex elsewhere, not because their partner wants to and they want to please their partner, but actual independent free choice...as far as that exists given environmental influences!

I just doubt there's much of it about. That's why it was niche, I think.

Socialized into BDSM because you're in your twenties?! I'm barely 30 and I certainly wasn't! I had a wild time in my mid-twenties traveling and drifting about for a few years (plenty of ONS/friends with benefits etc etc) and I never encountered anyone who was openly into BDSM and anyone who showed any such tendencies would be firmly placed in the "weirdo" category by me and my friends.

It's utterly depressing if women literally a few years younger than me are supposed to embrace this stuff as the "norm" all of a sudden? I have two DDs and I'll be trying my damndest to "socialise" them away from this crap!

@carlaCox agree 100%.
I've used Tinder to meet men, almost all the under 30s want to act out the same shit nasty cishet male 'dom' stuff they see on porn, and that's the non kink ones.
It's very sadly, what they think sex is.

It's very weird that you claim to be kink aware yet your total assumption on this post is that BDSM is male dom, fem sub. That's absolutely not the reality of the situation.

I agree that in the BDSM world it's traditionally been very different to what the OP is describing. But I do think that there's been a massive normalisation of female submissive sex to the extent that it has become the go-to for many young people. A close friend of mine is doing the tinder dating scene and says every single encounter has been like this (think choking, slapping, spitting etc.). I think some people are calling this BDSM but in reality it's just people copying what they're seeing in porn.

This feels like a research question for a thesis, or a journalist looking for an article. Neither of which is really what AIBU is for.

It's very weird that you claim to be kink aware yet your total assumption on this post is that BDSM is male dom, fem sub. That's absolutely not the reality of the situation.

RACK/ SSC should be allowed to exist peacefully and privately without constant investigation from people outside of it.

BDSM on the most part is men being the sissy/sub

If anything would the power not be empowering for a woman?

The parties, not 'them parties' shudder

It's rather a big group of people to lump together!

For a start, not all of us are in 'the scene', for many of us, it's a private part of a monogamous relationship. That's the category in fall into. Yes I occasionally might fantasize about going to them parties etc, but they aren't compatible with the monogamous lifestyle we choose, so we don't.

I have no problem (most of the time) in reconciling the feminist part of me and the kinkster part of me. We are also both very switchy , so our roles are interchangeable. So one day I might be wielding the whip, the next day him (if only it were that frequent, but small children and lockdown make things tricky).

We also have a very equal relationship aside from sex, in terms of households rules, so there aren't any underlying power issues with us. As with most people I know who are truly into BDSM (as opposed to those using it as an excuse for violent tendencies) are very respectful of eachother and each others boundaries.

I am concerned though at the normalisation of violent porn, and think there is too much pushing of women towards BDSM by men, rather than it being a mutual interest, and that is concerning. Partially because it makes it easier for abusers, and secondly because those individuals are less likely to 'play' within acceptable rules and boundaries in terms of what is safe (for mental as well as physical health).

As far as choking/breath play goes, I do some of this (both ways), but only on the very mild side, and more to create the perception of it, rather than actually, if that makes sense. It's not something I think of lightly though (or anything that actually involves risk) and I fear for people in abusive relationships where this plays a part, whether under the illusion of kink or not.

Ok here's my two pence based on my own experience (been there, done it, got the t-shirt etc.)

I think it's no coincidence that many young women are going in for this. Women wanting to be dominated in sex is often symptomatic of having little confidence and agency in the bedroom. It's easy to just copy what you see in porn and go along with what the guy is doing. It's also easy to "get off" on the taboo of BDSM rather than actually figure out what really works for your body. It may sound very cool and progressive and liberating but women being sexually dominated by men is as old as the hills.

What's a lot more modern (and risky) is women taking control of the situation and asking for things, especially when it requires selflessness on the part of the man. Women being given the space and freedom to explore their natural bodies, rather than seeing themselves through the lens of the male gaze. Women being able to examine how culture and socialisation has shaped our desires and to connect with something a bit deeper.

TL:DR - the current obsession with male domination of women in the bedroom is stifling the ability of women to explore female-centric sex and I think it's a shame.

As previous poster's have said BDSM and the sort of nasty porn sex (choking, spitting, etc) are not the same thing.
I have been in kink relationships and in my last one I got cooked for, my nails done/hair washed by partner all as part of the dynamic.
Its a big spectrum

I know Mumsnet has a large community of feminists (particularly Radical Feminists, apologies in case that term causes offense (?) but I'm not sure how to put it otherwise). I’m quite interested in why you think Radical Feminist might be an offensive term?

IME it's been adopted by abusive men, helped along by 50 shades of grey, and they use it as a socially acceptable way to abuse a woman.

How many women have been killed because of a bdsm 'accident'? I think it was 17 last year.

In my day, bdsm was very much a fetish community, and it was far more common to have women in the domme role and men being subservient.

I don't think you need to be a radical feminist to agree with @BeansMeansWines and @CrotchBurn do you? Or maybe I am. Because I do.

Yes - it's all just for men's pleasure, and somehow women are believing they are empowered .

And also ime bdsm is frequently used by abusive men.

Crotctchburn you are so right & songs such as WAP , some young women thing it’s empowering, but it’s the complete opposite.

Okay controversial view but whatever:

I think the current upswing in BDSM has fuck all to do with genuine curiosity and is just another symptom of the way in which women's status and empowerment is moving backwards.

I put it up there with the whole twerking, fillers, hyper sexualised music industry, overly feminised attitude to womanhood that has been emerging over the past decade. It's no coincidence IMO that women being pressured into porn star-like fashion trends aligns with a rise in BDSM interest and young men thinking stuff like choking and anal are "standard".

It's just about women existing for male pleasure.

Note: yeah I know there are people who geninely get off on sub/dom stuff and that's good for them

Why is it when any other group is described as "radical" it means they've taken up arms and violence to further thier course.

But for feminism it always seems to be used in reference to Internet talking

Did you say you were in your twenties?? Strange you have Antonio Banderas as your fantasy, would he not be your mum’s of gran’s even !

I have never believed the promiscuity explanation for dominance (I’m not referring to more extreme and painful acts here).

It is far more likely it is due to the pretence that recreational sex has nothing to do with procreation and is just pleasure. Pregnancy is dangerous and life changing, unequally falls on women and is part of sex. I would speculate that the dominance element is a way of making that inequality explicit when we are socialised to create so much cognitive dissonance around the primary purpose of sex.

@LangClegsInSpace but none of these women want to be raped.... or did you not read the article?

@BeeDeeEssEm I think the blame avoidance theory is interesting... but maybe not so much in this current time? I wasn't around whenever that song "baby it's cold outside" was written, but I think that basically summed up the "tone" of the time i.e the woman was trying to save her reputation but actually really wanted to stay with him.

For me, personally speaking (and I've had many years to come to try to sort through the WHY)... I used to wonder if it was more the "bodice ripper" explanation below. The wanting to be wanted part. But I actually have pretty high self esteem and a high sense of self worth so... maybe not? IDK. It also occurred to me that I had those types of thoughts before I even really understood what sex was, before I had been exposed to porn or anything of that nature. So the argument that society is shaping all of these women doesn't ring true for me.

Still I find it interesting, and definitely not as black and white as a lot of people with absolutely no experience of having these thoughts seem to want it to be.

And FWIW I am a feminist. I don't think I'm radfem but I am gender critical and agree with a lot of what people say on the fem boards.