To ask Radical Feminists about their views on BDSM?

I can definitely see how it can be trauma related in some people, or a way of self harming.

But I have never had a desire to self harm.
I've never been treated badly by men (I appreciate how fortunate I am with this)
I have never experienced anything even coming close to trauma.

I had a pretty closeted childhood, which meant that I didn't even know of the existence of BDSM until I was about 20. By that point (still a virgin) I had experimented with tying myself up, and had no idea it was even a 'thing' that other people did, I just knew I liked it. Hadn't realised that I also like doing the tying at that point.

Sometimes people just like the sensations, or the feeling of power. It doesn't have to be abusive, though I do agree that those lines get blurred far too much.

Interesting quotes, Flora, ta for sharing.

Brilliant post @FloraFox

Also this from Audre Lorde:

noproncollective.blogspot.co.uk/2007/05/audre-lorde-sadomasochism-in-lesbian.html

"Leigh: What about the doctrine of “live and let live” and civil liberties issues?

"Audre: I don’t see that as the point. I’m not questioning anyone’s right to live. I’m saying we must observe the courses and implications of our lives. If we are talking about feminism then the personal is political and we can subject everything in our lives to scrutiny. We have been nurtured in a sick, abnormal society, and we should be in the process of reclaiming ourselves, not the terms of that society. This is complex. I speak not about condemnation but about recognizing what is happening and questioning what it means. I’m not willing to regiment anyone’s life. If we are to scrutinize our human relationships, we must be willing to scrutinize all aspects of those relationships. The subject of revolution is ourselves, is our lives.

"Sadomasochism is an institutionalized celebration of dominant/subordinate relationships. And, it prepares us either to accept subordination or to enforce dominance. Even in play, to affirm that the exertion of power over powerlessness is erotic, is empowering, is to set the emotional and social stage for the continuation of that relationship, politically, socially and economically.

"Sadomasochism feeds the belief that domination is inevitable. It can be compared to the phenomenon of worshipping a godhead with two faces, and worshipping only the white part on the full moon and the black part on the dark of the moon, as if totally separate. But you cannot corral any aspect within your life, divorce its implications, whether it’s what you eat for breakfast or how you say goodbye. This is what integrity means.^

BeeDeeEssEm I came on the thread to talk about rad fem thinking on BDSM but I can see this is a very personal thread for you. It might still be interesting for you to have a look at some rad fem writing on the topic as part of your processing.

This is interesting: (7 pages)

www.mediafire.com/?6lcyid9dchi5bdi

It's an essay by Dorchen Leidholtd from The Sexual Liberals and the Attack on Feminism published in 1990.

These were written 30 years ago and I think we are seeing the realisation of the concerns they were talking about. It's clear that so-called "kink" or nonconformist sexual activities were not even really taboo or non-conforming back then, let alone today, in the context of women's sexuality in patriarchal society.

Talking about violent sexual fantasises reported by "pro-sex" feminists she says:

"we have to look beyond the fantasies themselves to the culture in which they develop. It is not just coincidence that they imitate the violence men do to women and girls. Think about the implications for our sexuality of the following statis tics: More than a third of us were sexually abused as children (Russell, 1984). For many of us, our first sexual experience was a sexual assault. Forty-four percent of us will be raped (Russell, 1984). The environment in which we learn about and experience our bodies and sexuality is a world not of sexual freedom but of sexual force. Is it any surprise that it is often force that we eroticize? Sadistic and masochistic fantasies may be part of our sexuality, but they are no more our freedom than the culture of misogyny and sexual violence that engendered them."

"The inescapable fallacy of the sexual repression thesis, as applied to women by the pro-sex people, is that it looks at sexuality within a context of largely mythical sexual restrictions and outside an environment of real, ongoing male sexual exploitation and abuse. In doing so, it turns what is done to women's sexuality by external oppression into something we do to ourselves in our heads. It suggests that if only women can break through internal "taboos," we will have sexual freedom, indeed we will be free. It ignores the real political lesson of women's sexual experience: women cannot have sexual freedom, or any other kind of freedom, until we dismantle the system of sexual oppression in which we live."

I think healing is a process, and can take a long time. With luck we get incrementally better. Believing that there is one magic key that will solve everything is perhaps part of the problem, I suspect. More likely a lot of different things all help a little bit and we gradually, with luck, edge closer to living a healthy, content and productive life. That's possibly a life's work, figuring it out.

All I would say is: it is very much possible to heal. Don't give up trying. Keep gently asking yourself what you need; seek out steady, calm friends on the path. Look after yourself. Be gentle with yourself. Take your time. You have to slowly learn to listen to yourself.

I hope some of that makes sense, and bon courage!

Heaven forfend that anyone be "vanilla" so it seems the person who is "kinkiest" wins.

This.

Also why the labelling of so much as BDSM and people have to be into it or not into it 100%.

It feels like everything has to be labelled nowadays. Once everything is categorised then everyone must be categorised accordingly. Then everyone must stay in their lane. I don't like it.

Does anyone have exactly the same kind of sex every time? Now that would be weird imo. Different days, different mood, different behaviours.

It used to be recognised that lots, maybe even most people, might sometimes have a entertaining time with their partner involving a bit of slap and tickle.

British humour has long been full of jokes around this normal behaviour. We laugh down the pub with our mates about it because we all recognise it as a thing that people do now and then. Chase me; spank me I've been naughty; darling take me roughly from behind; dressing up like a Roman gladiator or whatever.

It seems that now one must make a po-faced woke declaration that one is into the scene, be expected to reject every other option, be encouraged to be defined by it publicly(!) and expect over time to take that niche to extreme.

Bollocks to that.

Anyway can't spend any more time on Mumsnet Feminism boards tonight as DH might be up for pretending to be Conan the Barbarian seeing as Arnie's democracy speech gave me the fanny gallops by the end. Like a normal person. Joking not joking.

I will say though, and I apologise if I sound patronising. But the place you are in now (recovering but not recovered from self harm, childhood trauma etc) is an absolute magnet for a certain kind of man. Even if you dont tell people, some men can pick up on it instinctively and they are pretty much always bad news. For that reason I think you need to be very careful about checking for red flags whilst dating - even more careful than most. And I do think men expressing interest in BDSM is a red flag.

How have the last 25 years been, any improvements?
It was actually 15 years (I misstyped). But yes, my life is better than I could ever have imagined!

OP, I'm very sorry to hear you know yourself how self-harm can feel like the answer. Your insights neatly articulate the problem I've been developing with BDSM.

If you said the same, I would empathise with you and try to help you come up with alternative coping mechanisms to deal with your emotions.

That's the nub of it. It's usual to discuss harm reduction, and whether it will be possible to replace behaviours with non-harmful or less harmful alternatives. It is flatly acknowledged that these are not optimal coping mechanisms and the goal is to de-escalate it.

But if we change it to a sexual context, and there is actually pressure on men and women (but mainly women) to try more harmful, more serious activities. People are encouraged to escalate what they're doing under the guise of "you won't know if you're into it unless you try it". The question of whether it would improve someone's overall life, including their physical health, to develop a taste for more extreme BDSM acts, goes unasked, never mind answered.

Heaven forfend that anyone be "vanilla" so it seems the person who is "kinkiest" wins.

@Justhadathought exactly, tbh it is very much in my head as in reality I would hate to be treated that way in real life and do hate being creeped on or harassed. That was what I was trying to articulate really- how different our sexual interests can be from how we feel in "real life".

I've gone through the vast majority of my life from a young age being pursued/lusted after by men? Is it genuinely what I want or is it just what I'm used to/expect?

I think it is largely based on your early/earliest experiences. Our sexual responses are so closely tied to our earliest exposures. Re-playing past scripts and obsessing on certain narratives.

I mean I have plenty of (non-sexual) daydreams where I am in a building that is taken over by terrorists/bank robbers and I fight them of with my amazing kick-boxing/parkour skills. They can get quite detailed. In real life, even if I was able to fight of said terrorists (unlikely) it would be hugely stressful and not fun at all. I would probably be left with quite severe PTSD. Fortunately though, it is never going to happen in real life.

Gosh but yes I agree women can be exploited and it's awful.

I will never forget reading a Reddit thread on a similar subject and seeing a guy reply something along the lines of "look I just like hurting people." Made my skin crawl

I'm not into BDSM at all but my fantasies had always been centres heavily on power dynamics and stereotypical exaggerated gender roles. But obviously I don't want such things to happen in real life at all so I can understand a genuine compartmentalisation and could see how people could enjoy it consentually without it saying anything further about their outlook on how men or women should act or be treated

Personally think such fantasies are best kept at that level ( of imaginal/fantasy) - and not taken onto the physical level. When things start getting physical they somehow are made more real, I feel. More likely to become habitual and learned responses.

@BeeDeeEssEm Based on your last post. Are you SURE you're not me from 25 years ago???