My night just ended with me crying in the bathroom over JK Rowling

@Lucieintheskye

But... She is a TERF

Wow. So incisive.

Men are generally (yes this is a generalisation) really clueless about the extent to which women's lives are seriously affected by their physical sex. Even those that "recognise" it in the abstract often don't think about how e.g. their sister, flatmate, wife etc might have been turned down for a job because someone quietly assumed they'd get pregnant, as one tiny example of millions.

JKR is my absolute idol for how much she stands up for us. I'm sorry you had to be upset in order for your privileged flatmate to finally get the point.
I was so proud of my 15YO DD before Christmas. A male bi classmate of hers told her he thought he was trans. She said fair enough and told him she would support him, but that under no circumstances was he to ask to use the girls changing rooms or toilets.
Keep educating ladies.

this just seems like more 'wife work'. What is the matter with all these people that they can't read both sides of an argument and come to a conclusion themselves? It's just women doing more work for men. Same old same old. I am sorry you had to hear all that abuse OP. Perhaps your friend might start to do some of his pwn thinking now instead of making people do it for him?

I understand why you are upset Vespa. But this is so much bigger than an argument about JKR. It is about Twitter and media being able to destroy someone entirely for voicing an opinion. JKR was brave and knows she has wealth to fall back on (wealth she created herself) so she is standing up for those who can’t speak up. Do we want to live in a society where there is only one opinion and deviation means loss of livelihood and social ostracization? You did really well in holding a debate. Those who state the mantra “no debate” are unfortunately stupid, but their stupidity will take us all down. In standing up for yourself you stand up for all of us. But it involved adrenalin, it is not easy when you are not used to confrontation. Look after yourself now, you have done nothing wrong. We are all getting more courageous because we have to, there is so much at stake.

I see you're providing the full depth of the counter argument there, Lucie, well done.

Thank you x

@biddie191

www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

There you go

Could someone please send me the link for the JK essay? Many thanks xx

Nah. I don't blame anyone outside the actual nitty gritty of this issue to think that some women are anti trans and that's as bad as racism. They believe the rainbow people because why wouldn't they? The rainbow people are goodies and stand against prejudice.

This is turning an oil tanker. We have to accept that many of our intelligent, well read friends are starting from `omg imagine excluding trans people just because of who they are', because the people who they trust and listen to are saying that.

Your friend sounds like a normal, decent person. He listened, evaluated the new information you gave him, and came to a fresh conclusion. Massive win.

Well done op - you did way better than me. 3 of my friends, (one of whom would call herself a feminist, has run careers events for teenage girls and donates to an overseas girls charity) wouldn’t accept any of my points - no Karen White, males in sports, JKRs abuse, excessive numbers of girls affected - the only concession I got was no men in women’s toilets. They put it all down to outliers, bad things happen, stop looking at twitter for horrid people.

I was unprepared for that conversation then but many months later, from the extensive discussions on here I am much clearer on why the issues I brought up are important.

The sad thing is, if they understood the implications for their daughters of what was going on they’d be be horrified.

Very well done, OP. I'm sorry you were upset.

I think I know how you feel - it feels invasive and unfair to have to spell out why women may have a fear response to males. It should be understood without us having to reveal personal history.

And the fact that some people will then further attack women ('capitalise on their sexual assault history - Judith Butler, 'weaponise their history of dv', that plank of a Labour MP) is beyond the pale, but perhaps illustrates how afraid people are that women will tell the truth. And thus shows how powerful personal testimony can be.

Don't let them shut us up. Keep talking.

Like others, OP, I think you've done a good job there. Yes, the default sexism is depressing. But we know it's not unusual.

And it's good that more people are becoming aware of the issue. Despite the fact that many have a knee-jerk reaction, there are enough outlets like media sources, political groups and GC people out there, now, putting forward the facts.

It may feel like slow progress, but it's an awful lot quicker than it was. The tanker has been turned around. It will take time, but that's because it's so massive.

Well done. Don't be down. You're in the sunlight, pulling people in with you.

It’s a bit early for so have a from us on this thread.

Well done, Vespa. You won a victory for women and may have deepened your friendship with your flatmate. Misogyny is so ingrained in younger people that he probably didn’t realise he was being offensive. You’ve eoken him up and, with luck, he will spread this to other friends. Every victory like your chips away at the structure of misogyny.

JK is a bit of a trigger with some people. As a pp said, as lot of the younger generation really dislike her now.
Though it’s not always men who jump to the slurs. I didn’t realise that my DD (19) hated her until Christmas Day, as I’d got her the new jk book - not realising it was a kids book! Oops!
Whereas DS (22) bought me a woman = adult human female mug.

I think the OP is down for good reason: I know I should feel better that he apologized and agreed but it really bothers me how quick men are to brand women the slurs like terf.

This isn't a bad man, yet he thoughtlessly jumped on the misogynistic bandwagon. The OP won this battle but it shouldn't have arisen in the first place if men routinely treated women fully as equals.

OP, you shouldn’t be crying, you should be punching the air in celebration! You actually got a man to admit his own ignorance, apologise and address it. That is wonderful! Go, you!
It sounds to me as if he is not a malignant woman hater, just a dim virtue signaller trying to fit in with the woke brigade. You have given him an excellent dose of reality. Well done!

Well done. You got to open his mind a bit.

Most people don’t think.

I had a conversation with someone who is very intelligent and compassionate. She read JK’s essay and agreed with it. We then had a discussion on men coming out as trans/lesbians (EI) and she suggested we could support them by getting rid of single sex spaces...

Unlike you, I managed to completely close her mind. Head plant...

He apologised, and it seems this has been largely fixed!

I've lost my friends to this. My female friends who identify as feminists.

It’s so difficult.

I had very similar with DS (19) at weekend. He referred to me as a “cis woman” and it completely triggered me.
I unleashed (which isn’t my usual manner.) All reason and calm vaporised. An hour later I had outpoured, disputed and referenced all the usual points without barely taking a breath.
Funnily enough I think it had more impact though as I don’t think he had ever realised just how deep this runs.
I followed up two days later with a copy of the Tavistock judgement and other credible stats.
Sometimes, maybe, showing some emotion punctuates just how big this is. Without wishing to stereotype, I do wonder for some males if they need that extra non verbal communication to “get it”.

I’ve noticed a definite change in his attitude. Just keep talking I guess. Even if it’s emotional.

Vespa - I'm sorry you had to deal with this but you did really well.

The Keira Bell judgment vindicates JKR's perspective!

OP, I think you did a great job with your flatmate!

Perhaps later you can ask him if he has read the essay and what he thinks of it in view of the Keira Bell decision.

Chances are he won't know much (if anything) about Keira Bell, so this is a further discussion point.

JKRs essay is there for anyone to read. It speaks for itself.

Every conversation nudges another male who thinks he's right on (but is actually sexist) into reconsidering their position.

It's draining for us. We are exhausted with this. It's witch-burning and it's as old as the hills.

You did well. As did the other pp on Twitter.