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Original poster

My night just ended with me crying in the bathroom over JK Rowling

81 replies

Vespa1 · 05/01/2021 02:36

This thread is mostly a vent and searching for post of support because I feel like crap.

My flat mate and I couldn't sleep so we were in bathroom planning how to redo it soon. Somehow the conversation turned to Harry Potter and he said "JK Rowling... what a terf!"

I said I can't believe he just said that and asked him did he read her essay. He said he did not, only her tweets.

So I told him what she said about her being a domestic violence survivor and how that affects the way she feels when she is in an intimate space with a man and I told him about her saying she thinks the rise in teen girls transitioning is motivated by misogyny and I told him I agree with her because of my personal experiences with male violence and how I would have probably transitioned too if it was a thing when I was a teen. I started crying while saying that because it triggered my experience with male violence.

He said that makes sense and that he agrees. He said he's sorry and that he will read the full essay. He said it shows there is no such thing as nuanced conversations on twitter and that is why he deleted twitter recently.

I know I should feel better that he apologized and agreed but it really bothers me how quick men are to brand women the slurs like terf. I asked him does he even knows what that means and when he said he does I asked him does he know what radical feminist means. There was a two minutes silence before admitting he doesn't have a clue.

So why are you branding her something that you don't even know what it is?

Arghhh rant over. When this nonsense ends the same people will pretend they agreed with her from the start.

OP posts:
Childrenofthestones · 05/01/2021 19:01

@HubertHerbert

He apologised, and it seems this has been largely fixed!

I've lost my friends to this. My female friends who identify as feminists.

Exactly. Me too including one daughter i thought would never drink the Kool-Aid. This is far from gendered. If you want to draw a line I would say its far more about class and university education. Somebody middleclass and either attending or having attended Uni are far more likely to be gender obsessed than your average working non Uni educated person.
ThatIsNotMyUsername · 05/01/2021 18:42

Yes, funny that...

ErrolTheDragon · 05/01/2021 18:18

It's funny how the selfsame people who decry women defending women's rights as being 'exclusionary' will bray about 'appropriation' in relation to other axes of oppression.

Abitofalark · 05/01/2021 17:13

@Alexandernevermind

I sometimes wonder about the label TERF. It's obviously intended as an insult, but is it really a bad thing?
I think it's a bad thing because
  • it tries to smear women who express any concern about trans activist claims or demands as being a certain sort of narrow extremist, suggestive of something like a minority sect or cult and therefore to be dismissed and ignored - this capitalises on the fact that not many people would know what was or wasn't a radical feminist; I don't even know and I've been a feminist / around feminists
  • it also tries to sweep up any criticism or questioning of trans activism by anyone, female, male or trans or anything else, into that same tainted box and
  • to categorise any critical or questioning stance as negative and prejudicial by invoking and loading the word 'exclusionary' to suggest something of a harmful nature. This is particularly disingenuous and twisted, given that the nature of what activists demand is 'exclusionary.
doublehalo · 05/01/2021 14:08

I'd love to know how men 'seem' to know so much about it and are so invested in the first place? ( I have a working theory..)

I can't think of a single other issue that affects women (and when I say women I mean of course TW but as everyone knows TWAW) that gets this much attention.

Maybe you could suggest he turn his attention to FGM or equal pay or somesuch.

TheBuffster · 05/01/2021 13:52

Ah thanks for that.
Sadly hardly surprising, women and black people historically ignored.

ThatIsNotMyUsername · 05/01/2021 13:36

TheBuffster - Marsha P Johnston was a drag queen who called himself ‘he’, didn’t refer to himself as a woman, and is on record as saying he was sleeping off a hangover at the time of the riots and rocked up later. Storme (a black woman) was actually there (stonewall) and whipped up the crowd to ‘do something!’ when the police started carting people away, and that’s how the riot started.

However, the rewriting of history has portrayed Marsha as a trans woman who led the fight a la Marianne leading the troops. Storme is generally airbrushed out (or transed which she wasn’t as explained by people who knew her). The facts are patiently explained 1000 times a day on social media by people who were there, but there is a statue in NY (planned?) of Marsha but none of Storme.

So the whole ‘who started the riots’ is generally illustrated by a picture of Marsha in feathers and bows and not a single word of Storme... even google had this in their image if the day/week/month last year.

Funny how few bothered to mark the riots until Marsha became famous.

WhichOneOfUsIsCaving2 · 05/01/2021 13:25

@ThatIsNotMyUsername

Ask them to name one male terf and I bet they can’t. Because it’s all about the bad women isn’t it? Same old same old, with a new furry anime face.

Post of the day (for me).

TheBuffster · 05/01/2021 13:24

@ThatIsNotMyUsername

I did have a massive tantrum last year (pride week/month, whatever) when someone I was with was writing something (sorry to be vague) for the woke company they worked for to celebrate (with a vengeance): the woman who started the stonewall riots, and all the other black trans women sisters who were there too... with the expanded pride/trans flag on the side and a picture of... Marsha...

And no it wasn’t remotely about Storme (Not even mentioned)... the red mist descended and I had a tantrum that would put a 3 year old to shame. I made my point. I never knew I still had what my parents called ‘the rage’ (I was quite the social warrior as a child and would get really angry when anyone told a fib or stole anything, or was rude or swore...).

@ThatIsNotMyUsername what's the Marsha thing? I've Wikipedia searched but not sure I get the gist?
ThatIsNotMyUsername · 05/01/2021 12:51

Ask them to name one male terf and I bet they can’t. Because it’s all about the bad women isn’t it? Same old same old, with a new furry anime face.

NotTerfNorCis · 05/01/2021 12:23

Some left-leaning men buy into the whole 'terfs are evil bigots' thing and don't analyse. It's easier and they don't really care. The frustrating thing is explaining the gender critical view and still being called a bigot because he hasn't listened, or wants to tease.

ThatIsNotMyUsername · 05/01/2021 12:12

I did have a massive tantrum last year (pride week/month, whatever) when someone I was with was writing something (sorry to be vague) for the woke company they worked for to celebrate (with a vengeance): the woman who started the stonewall riots, and all the other black trans women sisters who were there too... with the expanded pride/trans flag on the side and a picture of... Marsha...

And no it wasn’t remotely about Storme (Not even mentioned)... the red mist descended and I had a tantrum that would put a 3 year old to shame. I made my point. I never knew I still had what my parents called ‘the rage’ (I was quite the social warrior as a child and would get really angry when anyone told a fib or stole anything, or was rude or swore...).

ThatIsNotMyUsername · 05/01/2021 12:06

Well done you for not punching him on the nose! I can’t be bothered with adults who resort to preteen ‘arguments’ (‘Cos I said so’ or ‘I saw it on Facebook’) dear god, I brought up DS to asume that there is always going to be a follow up question to any statement!

Of course he now quite an argumentative little sod now who thinks he can debate any issue but hey. He is also a good feminist ally (bless him) and quite good at analysing ‘arguments’ that people put forward and questioning their motives. God help me that he doesn’t become a politician...

ClaireP20 · 05/01/2021 11:51

@Newbee9

It’s so difficult.

I had very similar with DS (19) at weekend. He referred to me as a “cis woman” and it completely triggered me.
I unleashed (which isn’t my usual manner.) All reason and calm vaporised. An hour later I had outpoured, disputed and referenced all the usual points without barely taking a breath.
Funnily enough I think it had more impact though as I don’t think he had ever realised just how deep this runs.
I followed up two days later with a copy of the Tavistock judgement and other credible stats.
Sometimes, maybe, showing some emotion punctuates just how big this is. Without wishing to stereotype, I do wonder for some males if they need that extra non verbal communication to “get it”.

I’ve noticed a definite change in his attitude. Just keep talking I guess. Even if it’s emotional.

Good for you...x
TheBuffster · 05/01/2021 11:51

You can claim that one as a victory. Interestingly enough, it was JKs villification that actually led me down the GC path. I was a bit of a wokester, but after some extensive reading came firmly on GC side.
I've explained the arguments to DH. His exact response was ' You sound reasonable and everything you say makes sense. Is that what JK said because I don't understand why people would have a problem with it'.
It's frustrating to know if we weren't being silenced or if people would actually research it for themselves they'd be more supportive.
I think I've radicalised DH, he was analysing Pink News the other day.

ArabellaScott · 05/01/2021 11:50

Gosh, thanks, Which. Blush

I agree Dishwasher, I just don't feel knowledgeable enough (or certain enough) to say I'm a radical feminist. Increasingly I am not sure if I like to 'identify' with any kind of 'ism' at all, anyway. Not sure if it's always helpful (depending on context, I'm sure in some situations it can be useful) or if it just tends to encourage tribalism and defensiveness.

Dishwashervodka · 05/01/2021 11:30

I'm not well read enough to be a radical feminist, is what I always say.
Well done @Vespa1 and @Newbee9 and any woman having these conversations. I can't filter the words through my mouth in a coherent enough manner to do this.

ErrolTheDragon · 05/01/2021 11:20

The proper meaning of 'radical feminist' is another of the linguistic losses in this mess.

It seems to now mean no more than "feminist who knows what 'women' and 'women's rights' " actually mean.

WhichOneOfUsIsCaving2 · 05/01/2021 11:17

Also, I'm not really a radical feminist, but that's another ballgame.

I love your posts and always read them whatever kind of feminist you may be (or not).

WhichOneOfUsIsCaving2 · 05/01/2021 11:13

@Alexandernevermind

I sometimes wonder about the label TERF. It's obviously intended as an insult, but is it really a bad thing?

Yeah

Alexandernevermind · 05/01/2021 11:02

I know what you mean @ArabellaScott, it's an overused silly way of trying to shut us down.

ArabellaScott · 05/01/2021 10:59

I think it's inaccurate, which pisses me off, Alexander. I have no beef with transmen (biological females) using female single-sex spaces.

It's not 'trans' people I wish to exclude from female spaces - just male people.

Also, I'm not really a radical feminist, but that's another ballgame.

Alexandernevermind · 05/01/2021 10:56

I sometimes wonder about the label TERF. It's obviously intended as an insult, but is it really a bad thing?

ErrolTheDragon · 05/01/2021 10:53

I assume lucie was being sarcastic. That is indeed pretty much 'the full depth of the counter argument' - even though the person may not even understand what 'TERF' means.

ErrolTheDragon · 05/01/2021 10:51

Men are generally (yes this is a generalisation) really clueless about the extent to which women's lives are seriously affected by their physical sex.

Yes - DH surprised me recently when, during watching The Fall, he commented on how he hadn't really thought about coming up against someone who could easily physically overpower him. He's an averagely fit, average sort of height nearly 60yo, generally not slow on the uptake....He then did go on (maybe after he'd noted my eyebrows) something to the effect that women must feel like that a lot.