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Original poster

Help for teenage dd.

81 replies

SirVixofVixHall · 31/12/2020 13:56

My daughter, just turned 16, had a very upsetting zoom call with her school friends last night. For reference out of the three others one friend is gay, one is lesbian. Dd is the youngest, two of them are 17.
Talk turned to Sam Smith and pronouns, and to trans ideology. Dds friends are very much in the TWAW camp. Dd is not. At one point one of her friends gave her a veiled threat, mentioning a girl who had been ostracised in school for having a racist boyfriend, eg likening dds views to racism and homophobia. ( i am NOT happy about this ) The same friend also criticised dd for not having her pronouns on her instagram bio .
Dd is a very kind, thoughtful and sensitive person, she is anxious and upset this morning. I have suggested she could send them all Magdalen’s Alex Drummond video, and Barracker’s article on pronouns - ( can anyone link me to that ? I had it bookmarked I thought but can’t find it) . To give them some idea of why she feels the way she does. It sounds a pretty depressing conversation, the totalitarianism dressed up as liberalism, the friend who is getting harassed by men in her job but thinks that sex doesn’t matter. They think that Keira winning her case was a bad thing. Dd is accepting of the differences of opinion and happy to debate, which makes it all even more upsetting and has made me quite cross on her behalf.
She did talk about her point of view, but felt that there were things she couldn’t say, eg when a friend insisted that TWAW, she didn’t contradict her, I think she is worried that she will be dropped by them, she is very fond of them and they are her closest friends in school.
How to help ?

Dd has a separate group of friends in another country, of whom several are lesbian, and all of them are very strongly TWAW, gendered souls etc, so much so that dd has never even mentioned her own opinions. I feel sad for her that there is this crushing of any other viewpoints, and that she is feeling that the only way to keep friends is to not speak up, and that she is akin to a racist for wanting single sex spaces preserved, for knowing that sex is real, that sexual attraction is real, and that this is a sexist and regressive agenda, not progression.
I was 16 in 1980, and honestly it feels like a better time. Most of my female friends had short hair, without being told that made them not girls, most of my male friends wore makeup. I read Spare Rib and felt hopeful for the future. ☹️

OP posts:
AuroraBor · 31/12/2020 18:09

These people are not known for their accurate use of words and definitions. There is no reason to assume they use "racist" or "transphobe" correctly, although, I understand that being called that is unpleasant anyway.

Original poster
SirVixofVixHall · 31/12/2020 17:54

She doesn’t use social media very much, only instagram for specific things that she likes, and a few people she follows. She is a big reader and found Invisible Women an eye opener. She reads philosophy and a lot of classical fiction and has the kind of critical mind that is good at taking in information and picking apart different arguments. Obviously she and I have had a lot of chats about women’s rights, why we have single sex spaces, that kind of thing. She has not fallen for any of the nonsense, but of course she does want to be kind. We have perhaps discussed it more as a family than many people, because DH has a very good friend whose daughter suddenly started identifying as a boy at 16, was swiftly put on cross sex hormones , and at 17 had a double mastectomy. We were all really upset about this so conversations were had. There was also a boy in her school who decided he was trans at about 14/15 .
She might be better informed than her friends, who conflate trans rights with gay rights as that is what they have been told, but being compared to a racist by people who have known her for years has really upset her.
I am starting to worry that it will be even worse when she goes to university, as that is now not all that far away. I just hope things will have shifted a bit by then.

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AuroraBor · 31/12/2020 17:26

I definitely wouldn't start with Magdalen or anything else very obvious GC. But it's completely possible to shift your opinion just by looking at what TRAs are doing. I was totally in the "be kind" camp initially but once actually started to pay attention, saw so many red flags. I think what pushed me over the edge was watching an interview with Susie Green one morning where she sounded exactly like all the homophobic parents I've met.

Firstly, I wouldn't state my pronouns even if I believed TWAW. A lovely ex colleague of mine is trans and I worked with her both before and after transition. The change was already stressful for her and the added pressure to state her pronouns before she was ready would have been just cruel. If the pronoun police actually would want to be kind they'd split into pronoun declarers and pronoun abstainers to support those in both groups - before and after transition.

Secondly, I'd teach your daughter to fact check her friends. She shouldn't think she's immune to the false news echo chamber that drives Trump supporters and Brexit just because she's liberal. It will also be very handy if she ever becomes a parent. There is so much false info, myth and wrong advice being spread by well meaning people.

Thirdly, it might be beneficial to look at history. Witch trials, Cultural Revolution, Khmer Rouge, Russian Revolution, cults, Scientology, lobotomy, new agey type trends like indigo children etc. Especially what the people believed, how they positioned themselves and how the ideas spread. Once you're aware of the past you start seeing more parallels with current events.

Then she can slowly drip feed her friends and hopefully make them start questioning on their own

Coyoacan · 31/12/2020 16:54

It's not just teenagers and they are not monsters. A very old friend of mine, the mother of teenagers, has bought into this ideology, hook, line and sinker. She is one of the loveliest people I know, but she and another lady are dropping long-standing friendships because of these sorts of disagreements.

I don't think there is any harm in your daughter keeping her head down on this subject for the moment.

DaisiesandButtercups · 31/12/2020 16:49

I see your point OP about if nobody speaks up but when our DC are alone among their peers in a hostile environment, well I would rather not put mine on the front line.

Perhaps underground resistance in their age group will grow and then at some point there will be a few of them to stand up together if they choose to.

At the moment we don’t know which way this is going to go and it could get a lot more nasty than it has been so far for those of us who have an “old fashioned” view on biology and reality. I hope not but we can’t rule it out yet. Really the only way to impose gender ideology is by authoritarian force, they don’t have rational arguments and they don’t seem interested in peaceful coexistence with other ways of seeing things.

I saw a tweet yesterday from a genderist which said “we can and we will compel you”

Pretty scary but this attitude is not uncommon I fear.

Locationunknown · 31/12/2020 16:36

But if nobody speaks up then surely everyone else also thinks that most people agree ?

Exactly. They do think that everyone else agrees. That's why it's a shock when they find out they don't. It's like when the Tories win an election.

Original poster
SirVixofVixHall · 31/12/2020 16:33

But if nobody speaks up then surely everyone else also thinks that most people agree ? It is so difficult. I am vocal in real life with my views on women’s sex based rights, but not on twitter. I still feel stunned that in such a short time this movement has become prevalent, when it is so sexist and regressive.

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WithASpider · 31/12/2020 16:33

@SparkleAllTheWay I had a terse word for my 17yo DD last night when she announced that JK Rowling was transphobic. It basically boiled down to "If you haven't read it then you don't get an opinion." She knows full well I'm GC.
It's a little more difficult for a 12yo especially with the info they're getting being tiny snapshots on SM and them not really being old enough to read the essay themselves.

I really wouldn't be happy with what your dd's friends are doing OP, it's bullying and coersion.

Locationunknown · 31/12/2020 16:27

It's the same in the workplace and this is why I think the TRAs don't realise how many people actually disagree with their ideology. Just because people aren't voicing their views, it doesn't mean they don't have them. TRAs live in an echo chamber because complete agreement is the only thing they will accept. They think their movement is popular and well supported. It's not.

The truth will eventually come out in the courts and situations like sport where people can't ignore facts any more. Keep your head down, support organisations by following their campaigns for womens rights, write to your MP, etc. but keep your cards close to your chest and keep yourself safe.

This is a long game, you have to play smart.

Original poster
SirVixofVixHall · 31/12/2020 16:21

Made DH, not mad Dh. He is quite sane..

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Original poster
SirVixofVixHall · 31/12/2020 16:20

Hahahaha yes, the Pronoun Police... i actually can’t believe she is getting grief for not having “she/hers” on her (private) instagram. My friends didn’t spend their time policing other people like this, what has happened to teenagers ? Having family experience of totalitarianism has mad DH particularly wary of this kind of thing. It seems silly, but it is also rather frightening.
All these tolerant and liberal young people, who are only tolerant and liberal if you have exactly the right opinions, and pronouns..

OP posts:
Childrenofthestones · 31/12/2020 16:18

If it's any use OP my eldest had a level head on her shoulders, very science/facts based opinions (she's doing maths) and broadly GC. Then she went to uni. She's about to start her 2nd year. Unfortunately has a very woke boyfriend. A proper Dave Spart.
I've noticed by small snippets that she has started drinking the Koolaid.
The trans issue came up recently between us and her answer to a glaring unavoidable point was. " Well as I'm not trans that doesn't effect me so I don't have an opinion".
It was her way of avoiding obvious cognitive dissonance.
Perhaps your daughter could use this phrase to assuage her woke friends, if they'll let her.

SparkleAllTheWay · 31/12/2020 16:12

Fucking hell, talk about the teenage pronoun police out in force - your poor DD!

I’m dreading all of this with my Harry Potter loving 12 yr old DD, who came home from school one day last term and told me she ‘hates JK Rowling’ because she is ‘transphobic’. Or so her friends say, anyway, and being 12 and not wanting to be ostracised, she obviously agrees. Hmph!

I think previous posters are right that it’s probably best for your DD to tread the line carefully at the moment, for her own sanity and safety. The teenage years are beastly enough without all of this added shit.
Could she find some likeminded friends or even just an anonymous outlet online, to discuss her ideas on gender critical thoughts?

Thank goodness she’s got you! I work in the public sector and have to be careful about what I say all the time, but I love having a good ‘we are on the right side of history’ rant to my good old GC, second wave feminist Mum every now and then. Flowers.

Original poster
SirVixofVixHall · 31/12/2020 15:57

Have you got snow mejon ? Dds very unhappy that there is snow elsewhere but not here !

OP posts:
Original poster
SirVixofVixHall · 31/12/2020 15:56

It has spread everywhere. Part of me obviously wants dd to be protected, and another part of me worries that if this always goes unchallenged then it become the prevailing view.
She never brings it up, but she isn’t the type to not give her opinion if a subject is under discussion.

OP posts:
mejon · 31/12/2020 15:44

Ah SirVix it's shit isn't it? I'm in the next county up from you and I'm shocked that this ideology has reached such an isolated and mainly rural area. My eldest is 14 and has unfortunately fallen for the whole 'be kind' TWAW thing. I'm hoping we can come out the other side.

Vermeil · 31/12/2020 15:26

I’m sorry for her predicament 😞
I find it’s best to just not bring it up at all if your friends are likely to start acting like the Red Guard.
One of the reasons I don’t like the progressive Left’s current fixation with young people is that the current youth are no better or worse than previous generations, just as many of them are a bit twatty (quite a few in fact, because being a bit twatty when you’re young is part of growing up), but whereas previously nobody took a huge amount of notice, the current generation are constantly having smoke blown up their arses about how ‘politically switched on’ they are, even though we’re going through nothing more than one of those regular, brief, periods of politics being fashionable. As a result many have become intolerant, arrogant and bullying behind a facade of believing in a caring, more empathetic and tolerant world.

DaisiesandButtercups · 31/12/2020 15:21

So sorry you are going through this worry OP. My DC are a similar age and I would absolutely agree with PPs that it would most likely only cause more problems to send any GC videos or information such as Magdalen’s.

My DC have found that this has been the thing since returning to school/college in September. The previous academic year, for what there was of it gender ideology wasn’t on their radars or that of their peers to any significant extent. My oldest has carefully kept her GC views secret from all but her 2 closest friends who may not agree (kind of indifferent I think) but don’t judge.

The youngest is doing her best to not discuss it with friends either but when it came up recently in a direct question felt she couldn’t lie about her GC opinion that people can’t really change sex and was then of course called transphobic.

IMO the way to keep friendships going with differing opinions on a particular topic is to avoid that topic. For our children to avoid the fallout of this new authoritarian ideology the safest thing might be to keep quiet about their true beliefs in educational settings and fight their battles in different times and places. Just like misogynists are having a field day right now all bullies are given the same license under cover of “being kind”.

I hope for all our children that they will meet some real life friends who share their GC views as soon as possible. Coronavirus is not going to make that any easier.

Original poster
SirVixofVixHall · 31/12/2020 15:21

I suppose the other thing that worries me about telling her to keep her head down and her opinions to herself is that it isn’t any basis for a good friendship, and it also means, if all teenagers do this, that the ideology completely takes over, and on every level, including her welfare, that isn’t good.

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Original poster
SirVixofVixHall · 31/12/2020 15:15

I will listen to that.
She isn’t the type to just nod along though, she would never bring it up because she likes harmony and wants to get along with her group, but if challenged she would always say what she thought, she is articulate . One of the group , her longest standing friend out of all of them, seems to agree with her on some things and kept fairly quiet. One of the others hasn’t really thought about it in any depth I think ( the one being harassed at work), and said that she would like to read up more, which is why I wondered about that video, or Barracker’s article. Sadly a lot of it was framed under “being kind” and having pronouns on your bio is seen as being kind to transpeople.
It is so different to my teenage years, differences of opinion were more accepted, we weren’t so offended by everything. I don’t remember much pressure from friends to have certain beliefs.
I hope it isn’t the same when she goes to uni frankly. It all feels a bit close to bullying. In the end they made her cry and then did apologise. She is very fond of all of them, and obviously they are all very young, year 12. I still have my close friendship group from school, forty years later, as does DH , so I hope this can be resolved.

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Childrenofthestones · 31/12/2020 14:42

Sorry, Titania McGrath=Andrew Doyle

I'm listening to TRIGGERnometry | "2020 Has Been a Year of Mass Hysteria" - Andrew Doyle on Podbean, check it out! www.podbean.com/ea/dir-nx6dp-c90f799

Childrenofthestones · 31/12/2020 14:34

I was listening to the Titania McGrath interview on trigonometry and he made an excellent comparison between what people are going through now and the Salem witch trials. When those girls made their mad accusations against people who were then hung, anybody that disagreed and dare to stand up was hung as well.
19 innocent people were murdered not least because everybody was frightened to stand up and say no.
At the minute, your daughter along with most in her age group and also certainly anyone on the left or or working in the public sector may not get hung, but risk the destruction of any social standing and even employment by simply not agreeing with the doctrine.
he suggested that at some point in the future maybe 10 years, people like your daughters friends will look back and ask themselves how on earth did we do this.
I like to think he's right but I'm not so sure.
In the case of the Salem witch trials the girls eventually went too far and accused high-ranking popular magistrate's wife. Perhaps that's what these assholes now will do, perhaps that is what it will take for normal level-headed decent people to stand up and say "No ......that's enough."

PennineSpring · 31/12/2020 14:21

I’d go for what Jan said too. There is not middle ground when you’re young. Everything is so black and white and her friends will judge her on that basis. It’s only as we age we realise the whole world is many shades of grey.

FWRLurker · 31/12/2020 14:19

This is a touchy subject right now and while I understand you want to support your daughter I really don’t think that it’s a good idea for you to get directly involved in their political/social debates and discussions. It will only give the impression that she is somehow being brainwashed by you.

Support her by telling her she absolutely should stand up for herself - especially for actual accusations of transphobia. However being truthful with her that indeed some people will disagree - sometimes to the point of ending friendships over this. She should further know that Teen friendships are usually not forever. If they (or the ringleader) want to dump her as a friend they’ll find some excuse, this is just the current one they are using.

However if it seems only some people in the group are actively trying to push out your daughter she can try to preserve the friendship group by saying something like “I have no problem with trans people, everyone should identify however they like, I’m simply not comfortable sharing my pronouns, now please stop harassing me about it” then change the topic.

Anyway good luck to your daughter. Once kids are back in person it might be a good idea for her to start talking to more people and making new friends, hopefully some who are not obsessed with gender identity as a topic of discussion.

MondayYogurt · 31/12/2020 14:18

Oh gosh please don't get her to try and "win" them over. Smile and nod and just don't do anything to rock the boat, they are vicious at this age. There is no way she will change their minds - only life experience will do that.