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Original poster

Help for teenage dd.

81 replies

SirVixofVixHall · 31/12/2020 13:56

My daughter, just turned 16, had a very upsetting zoom call with her school friends last night. For reference out of the three others one friend is gay, one is lesbian. Dd is the youngest, two of them are 17.
Talk turned to Sam Smith and pronouns, and to trans ideology. Dds friends are very much in the TWAW camp. Dd is not. At one point one of her friends gave her a veiled threat, mentioning a girl who had been ostracised in school for having a racist boyfriend, eg likening dds views to racism and homophobia. ( i am NOT happy about this ) The same friend also criticised dd for not having her pronouns on her instagram bio .
Dd is a very kind, thoughtful and sensitive person, she is anxious and upset this morning. I have suggested she could send them all Magdalen’s Alex Drummond video, and Barracker’s article on pronouns - ( can anyone link me to that ? I had it bookmarked I thought but can’t find it) . To give them some idea of why she feels the way she does. It sounds a pretty depressing conversation, the totalitarianism dressed up as liberalism, the friend who is getting harassed by men in her job but thinks that sex doesn’t matter. They think that Keira winning her case was a bad thing. Dd is accepting of the differences of opinion and happy to debate, which makes it all even more upsetting and has made me quite cross on her behalf.
She did talk about her point of view, but felt that there were things she couldn’t say, eg when a friend insisted that TWAW, she didn’t contradict her, I think she is worried that she will be dropped by them, she is very fond of them and they are her closest friends in school.
How to help ?

Dd has a separate group of friends in another country, of whom several are lesbian, and all of them are very strongly TWAW, gendered souls etc, so much so that dd has never even mentioned her own opinions. I feel sad for her that there is this crushing of any other viewpoints, and that she is feeling that the only way to keep friends is to not speak up, and that she is akin to a racist for wanting single sex spaces preserved, for knowing that sex is real, that sexual attraction is real, and that this is a sexist and regressive agenda, not progression.
I was 16 in 1980, and honestly it feels like a better time. Most of my female friends had short hair, without being told that made them not girls, most of my male friends wore makeup. I read Spare Rib and felt hopeful for the future. ☹️

OP posts:
Original poster
SirVixofVixHall · 01/01/2021 13:11

@DaisiesandButtercups

SirVix, perhaps the occasional 1 to 1 chat about it with the particular friend or friends who are able to discuss the topic calmly is the best way forward and just avoiding it (change the subject or flat out refuse if pushed) in the company of the more intolerant one as it will inevitably lead to unpleasantness. A PP said it could be a good life lesson in diplomacy.
Yes I think this is probably the way forward for now. To be fair to the one who stayed quiet I think he is still forming an opinion and not sure what he feels. She does have a whole other group of friends from an activity, with whom is has never come up , to her relief as she is certain that her views would be strongly disapproved of.
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DaisiesandButtercups · 01/01/2021 13:05

SirVix, perhaps the occasional 1 to 1 chat about it with the particular friend or friends who are able to discuss the topic calmly is the best way forward and just avoiding it (change the subject or flat out refuse if pushed) in the company of the more intolerant one as it will inevitably lead to unpleasantness. A PP said it could be a good life lesson in diplomacy.

Thelnebriati · 01/01/2021 13:01

I think you are right to question the uneven dynamic, but I'd also be concerned if the friend that is warm in private still goes along with the bully in public.
None of this is real friendship, and I can't see it lasting. She's going to outgrow them as soon as she stops being afraid of losing them enough to have her own opinion.

CatsCantCatchNewYear2 · 01/01/2021 12:53

This business is reminiscent of being excommunicated in ye olden days because of thinking.

Original poster
SirVixofVixHall · 01/01/2021 12:43

No of course, I don’t think it is a disaster at all if she doesn’t keep her friends from school, just that she values these friends very much, this is her “group” and at the moment anyway she doesn’t want to edge out of the group at all. She is a loyal friend but not a doormat , although I think it would be a problem if she wanted to end a friendship with any individual, as they are a group.
It doesn’t seem great to me that that she isn’t allowed her opinion , while the others are, so that side of it isn’t a healthy friendship anyway, although when she has chatted to one of them alone the conversation has been much more accepting and warm.
From the responses it must seem as though DH and I have a lot invested in her keeping these friends, but I really do not mind who she has as a friend as long as they treat her decently. The problem is more the opposite in fact, I don’t like the dynamic here, they made her cry, and I think the veiled threat was horrible. She was bullied in school as a younger child, so my hackles go up at stuff like this.
I suppose I am also struggling with how much this has affected teenagers. One of them kept talking about LGBTQ rights, and sees the T as the same thing as the L and G . Dd sees this as an entirety different thing, so there is a clash right away. Personally I feel that someone threatening you with being ostracised if you have different feelings is not a good friend at all. But from the responses it seems that any teenagers who are critical of gender ideology need to keep very quiet in order to keep friends. Depressing, and also I don’t think her temperament is such that she will keep quiet.

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Notts2021 · 01/01/2021 10:59

I agree with not sending Magdalen Berns videos, although they are brilliant, it would just harden their positions.

Can she try asking them why TWAW, what makes a trans person have more in common with the sex they identify as rather than the one they actually are? She can say she doesn't understand it. They might question their views more if she approaches it this way and won't see it as a bad thing on her part.

I am someone who doesn't manage to maintain close friendships, it's not intentional but my friends have changed over the years. The most longstanding ones are people I see at events. It's not a disaster if she doesn't replicate you and your husband's friendships from school.

Mamello · 01/01/2021 10:36

My teenage dd is firmly GC and often shares Blair White videos or Rose of Dawn with her pals. Even if I don't necessarily agree with all they say at least they show that there are differences of opinion amongst trans people and there is no one 'correct' way of looking at things.

HoneysuckIejasmine · 01/01/2021 10:11

being compared to a racist by people who have known her for years has really upset her

I've had a falling out with friends about this as well as this is absolutely it. I knew we disagreed and was happy to just agree to disagree and get on with things. However, others felt differently when they realised I wasn't agreeing with them and apparently we can't all just coexist.

The thing that hurt the most was the implication that because I don't think twaw, that I am an absolute monster with thoughts that make people unsafe. The fact that they could put aside all they knew about me and think that none of that mattered, because I was a mean terf.

So I have removed myself from the social circle. 🤷🏻‍♀️

ThatIsNotMyUsername · 01/01/2021 10:04

I think - but what do I know - that it’s a valuable lesson for dealing with people who have ideas and beliefs that are dangerous/wrong/bonkers. There will be fashions and trends that people get swept up in (and bully others over) and this is life isn’t it? I always see things like this as life lessons on how to deal with jackasses...

If they friends are ones she wants to keep them she has to realise that this is like a religion (and the whole ‘be kind’ is ironic considering the bullying going on). If their attitude does become ‘say the words or we won’t be your friend’ then yes drop them like a hot brick.

I’d love to fast forward 20 years to see how many are living with hubby, 2 kids and a labrador in a house in the ‘burbs.

I was a bit concerned about DS (god, the speakers they have had in to school - and the sex Ed refers to ‘cis’ 🙄) but he (and his friends) see it for what it is. They don’t even pretend to be ‘cool’. There’s a trans kid in the school - must be 17/18 now - and it’s no big deal for the other students (they use their sex facilities and apparently is a ‘cool’ kid who just gets on with it and hasn’t joined any of the ‘societies’). But then our school isn’t stonewalled.

Awning10 · 01/01/2021 09:39

DS also says that he reckons about 75% at uni don't actually believe it.

Awning10 · 01/01/2021 09:35

DS also has one best friend and several fellow students who are trans and non binary. He feels he has no choice but to go along with it and indeed, it is hard to see an alternative to going along with it. All he can do is not wear the pronoun badge, travel an enormous distance to the single sex male loo at uni and keep his gob firmly shut.

RealityNotEssentialism · 01/01/2021 08:13

Omg please please don’t get her to send those videos. It will make life much harder for her. I’d urge her to gradually phase these people out of her life and look around for more open-minded friends. They sound like wankers. If she’s going to uni in a few years time, look around for places that have a radfem society and that way she can make contact with more sane people.

Delphinium20 · 01/01/2021 01:40

This absolutely pains me to admit this...but I have an almost reverse issue - my DD (17) has complained about friends and teachers who she claims are transphobic...as a result of listening to her talk about these things, I would suggest your daughter tread lightly. My DD feels like it's her moral duty to be a social justice warrior and while I can understand and support her fight against racism, she's applying the same logic to TRA, but unable yet to see how they are very, very different. I'm doing my best to talk her through this without alienating her. She's not militant, and as as far as I know she hasn't dropped friends, but she also has told me that if she didn't play the whole woke trans line, she's be ostracized and she's terrified that someone will attack me for voicing minor opposition to the standard script (oddly, she's not worried about her dad, who is very openly, "this whole trans ideology is bonkers"). The odd thing in all of this, my DD HAS been attacked for not being woke enough about trans issues because she has said that TW are not biological women. However, she thinks we can all "help" by using pronouns, opening up spaces, etc. and she uses the line, "people should educate themselves." She's essentially contradicting herself, which I hope, with maturity, she'll work her way out of this.

Where I have made headway is LEADING with compassion for trans folks, which I genuinely have, so that is at least easy. I've also used sexism and sexual harassment as topics to share how males are socialized to be aggressive towards women and girls.

I would strongly urge your daughter to keep her friends, but find ways to subtly voice her opinion using common ground topics.

For the posters above who talk of the Khmer Rouge and witch hunts...I've had the same thoughts while listening to these young people who both look to find people to cancel and simultaneously fear cancelling. Tonight, I had hope when my daughter said, "I can't wait for college. I can be a new person and one will know me from now." It's a sign that they are all on edge with the drama.

Original poster
SirVixofVixHall · 01/01/2021 01:36

She is cheerful now, she asked my advice this morning as she was really upset, but she’s had a lovely day with her sister and so hopefully will work out what she wants to do, I will talk to her tomorrow if she is still upset then. I must admit I am surprised at the pretty unanimous “tell her to keep her views to herself” advice. Seems the situation is worse than I thought. I come from a fairly political family -debate and sharing opinions have always been a big part of that. My children have been brought up to say what they think on political issues. I find it genuinely frightening that this might be a very negative thing for them, but also frightening for us as a society that the consensus is that is is better to keep one’s head down. I am worried, for my dd’s future , particularly her life at university, and for all of us in this climate. Maybe I just haven’t taken seriously how bad it has all become.

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Awning10 · 01/01/2021 00:19

I agree with the others who have advised that she keeps quiet. My DS is at uni and he has to do this - he dare not say a word. Not everyone is on board but none of them can speak up. There are some lecturers without pronouns which may mean they are not true believers. Still, nobody can say a word - DS reckons he would be disciplined or chucked out if he questioned anything.

Same with me really... I tread carefully...

AvocadoBathroom · 31/12/2020 23:51

@HmmSureJan

I think it would be a HUGE mistake for her to be sending videos like that to them as this would cement her position as a "Terf" in their eyes and I think would result in her being ostracised and severely bullied. I advise my children to keep their heads down and not get involved in any discussion, just nod and listen and give neutral responses. My children are GC and don't buy into the nonsense but they know the value in protecting themselves from the shameful bullying and abuse that would result in them challenging their friends. I've no other advice really. It's very difficult.
This exactly. And find new friends. It's all going to come to a head soon and these malicious and bullying types will backtrack. I have never known anything like this in its insidious totalitarianism.
Flyingin · 31/12/2020 23:19

I mean that some people are still friends with their school chums and some are not. The lesson here is how she navigates
This tricky situation not how she convinces her friends to think differently. I am gc and my dd thinks I am transphobic. I sympathise with your position but you need to step back.

Original poster
SirVixofVixHall · 31/12/2020 23:11

Flyingin I am not sure what you mean ?
Dd very much likes the fact that DH and I have our school friends still, and hopes that she keeps hers. I assumed most people did though ?
I don’t want her to drop friends because of differing views, any more than I want them to drop her, but of course that is her choice - is that what you meant ?

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Hailtomyteeth · 31/12/2020 23:10

You can't make this right for her. She's a young adult. The best advice would be for her to keep her head down for now.

This is what we'll have to teach our children - to keep silent about their beliefs and go along with the crowd, for their own safety.

Original poster
SirVixofVixHall · 31/12/2020 23:08

It is difficult trying to support teens through this. I really don’t think I have experienced anything similar in my lifetime, the absolute shutting down of opposing opinion. I have said that if a friend was to drop her over this they wouldn’t be a good friend anyway, but I can see that isn’t very comforting. I am glad though that she isn’t a sheep, or a teenage dictator. I have a younger dd, and I don’t know how she will cope when she is under societal pressure from her peers to toe the line.

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Flyingin · 31/12/2020 23:05

Please don’t try to get your dd to convince her friends. It won’t work. The lesson here is how she handles these friends. Also a lesson for you. Just because you are still friends with school chums decades on is irrelevant.

Original poster
SirVixofVixHall · 31/12/2020 23:00

My MIL has snow. We are jealous. In a normal year we would have been tempted to drive over there before the snow hit, but not this year obviously.

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mejon · 31/12/2020 21:38

@SirVixofVixHall

Have you got snow mejon ? Dds very unhappy that there is snow elsewhere but not here !
Yes we have - sorry! We're inland and up a hill so not surprising. Bitterly cold too.
Odense · 31/12/2020 20:35

I can’t seem to get thoughts of the Cultural Revolution out of my head

This

DaisiesandButtercups · 31/12/2020 18:13

I am worried about University too OP but when is yours going? September/October 2022? You never know how things will be by then, maybe there will be a return to freedom of thought and speech. Smile

I agree with PPs that when we were this age, last century, last millennium even I was not aware of anything like an ideology or belief being pushed on me and my peers, I suppose we were fairly apolitical?

Aurorabor I am with you about looking at history, I can’t seem to get thoughts of the Cultural Revolution out of my head. Obviously though we are a long way from that yet but the idea of a mobilised army of children and teens turning against parents and teachers just keeps haunting me a baby pink, baby blue and white guard.