Elective Mastectomies for the Non Binary

And it's the male reaction to the breasts that are the real problem and cause of the discomfort.

Of course, the real solution would be to remove the problem i.e. the male attitude but that would be too much to expect.

but why is this required, or even preferred, for women who identify as neither male nor female

Because male/masculine/male secondary sexual characteristics are the default. The female body is the "aberration" the difference the "Other."

There are several things going on I think, which may or may not be related.

There is dysphoria about certain body parts and how you choose to label those feelings. In many ways it seems more honest to id as NB if you feel dysphoria - it acknowledges that you can't in any real way be the opposite sex but feel extreme discomfort with your own.

There is earnest introspection - because the trans movement says your sex is what you feel it is, and young people like most of us have no feeling on the matter, so in accordance with what they have been told they declare themselves NB. Then look around and try to figure out how to signal their new identity.

And signalling is very significant. Both dysphoria and definition triggered NB identities are only real in so far as they are acknowledged by others. There's not really any difference between signalling trans and signalling NB so this applies to both.

For boys it's so easy to signal - any of heels, long hair, lipstick, skirts - still socially unexpected in men. The trans movement has been hostile to any further breaking down of these stereotype barriers for example the unis who were trying to ban cross dressing as a form of fancy dress. It threatens the power of stereotypes as signals.

How are girls to signal gender change though? I go about with short hair and men's clothes and shoes more often than not. It's perfectly socially accepted as women already fought that battle. Presenting as a man is actually seen as gender neutral, and people then clock frame/face shape/boobs to log whether you're male or female.

So both from a dysphoria perspective and a signalling perspective (which I do think may be heavily linked) boobs are a problem.

This, to my mind, also exemplifies (yet again) how deeply sexist the whole movement is.

Male non binary? Bit of mascara, dress with a bit of swish and you're good to go.

Female non-binary? Prove your commitment by undergoing major surgery to remove perfectly healthy and functional tissue.

If, generally speaking, one was to say a person has been mutilated, it’s an indictment of the person who did the mutilating, not a criticism of the person has been mutilated. Generally speaking of course. Some examples of how the term “mutilated” are used to criticise surgeons:

www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/oct/30/emil-gayed-surgeon-who-left-women-mutilated-says-patients-are-misinformed

www.independent.co.uk/news/health/ian-paterson-inquiry-breast-surgeon-cancer-private-safety-nhs-a9316296.html

Note that Paterson was punished for performing mastectomies on women with perfectly healthy breast tissue.

The recipients of such surgeries are victims.

Absolutely horrified that what I wrote warranted being deleted. What the hell is happening to the world?!

Am I allowed to still call fgm mutilation?

What about breast ironing? Or foot binding?

I'm guessing yes. But a Western surgeon literally cutting vulnerable woman's breasts off with a knife, that's a no is it? Right oh.

time away from boys would be less harmful than binding

Yes - which is why girls do better in single sex schools than mixed. Sadly, boys tend to do better in mixed so guess who wins...

I couldn't afford a good bra when I was a teenager, and hated my breasts being noticeable, especially in school shirts, and in PE. Boys would often comment on being able to see girls bra straps through the material.

I think a good supportive bra and time away from boys would be less harmful than binding.

And I think it might help if these operations were described as cosmetic surgery i.e. elective surgery for changing appearance - might help people consider whether children should be considering it.

When people are talking about binding as a normal or positive choice for 'non-binary' young women, do none of them ever stop to think:

• foot binding - recognised as awful abusive practice done to women historically

• breast ironing - recognised as awful abusive practice done to women in other parts of the world.

Do supporters of breast binding really think think 'Hmm, combining both of the above. That sounds like a great idea for female liberty'??!

Weirdly, I just went to FB and found the pic had popped up in one of my groups.
I’m now bringing the (literally) ugly reality of a double mastectomy to the ‘celebratory’ comments section... 😁

Doctors for the $$$ obviously.

What I still don't understand is how we are all supposed to be 'celebrating' this, and how it's just like being gay?

We are talking about young women, some of them not even out of their teens, having painful irreversible surgery involving cutting off perfectly healthy body parts because they are unhappy with their sexed bodies? How is that something to celebrate in any civilised society?

Is that amount of scarring/ wound normal for a double mastectomy? It doesn't look like it's been done very well, but then I don't know what it normally looks like.

Having had a double mastectomy, this sounds like a HUGELY regrettable choice down the line, unless they're all cool with having a permanent nerve damage, high possibility of infection post surgery, scar tissue... Thats without even starting on the weird relocated nipples....

What happens when you feel you can't live up to the expectations of women, and all around you, you think you see other women succeeding?

I can only speak for myself on that one. I remember when I was thirteen, and being horribly bullied (as usual), and thinking 'maybe if I do the girl performance they will leave me alone?' So I went to school wearing makeup, just the once, and they took the piss out of me for that, and I realised then that femininity was a game I could never win.

Not that I'd really wanted to play that game anyway, because even then I understood that putting on the performance makes you vulnerable, because to be visibly female makes you vulnerable.

Now, that's insightful.

Yes. What happens when you feel you can't live up to the expectations of women, and all around you, you think you see other women succeeding?

If a girl internalises the problem as being something lacking in herself, rather than an external one of social expectations, then that could lead to what we're seeing.

It's Not Like Other Girls on steroids, I think.

Agreed, but there's one thing that bothers me about that trope. We tend to be pretty scathing, assuming such people think they're better than the other girls. Certainly that's true in some cases, but for some it's more a case of worse than the other girls.

I never felt like the other girls, because the other girls were real.

TyroTerf

It's Not Like Other Girls on steroids, I think. They think that all the other girls are at ease with gender roles.

They don't want to be part of the sex-class, the class that can only make up 25% of four-person panel shows, the class that is in films to be a love-interest to the protagonist. They want to be seen as people

Yeah, I don't get how this is evidence that they're not women. It's standard for women in our culture!

The NB female people I have known said that the last time they felt their bodies were theirs, and fitted who they were, was pre-puberty.

Lucky sods.

Mine never felt like my own. Csa when you're barely out of nappies will do that to you.

They don't want to be part of the sex-class, the class that can only make up 25% of four-person panel shows, the class that is in films to be a love-interest to the protagonist. They want to be seen as people

Don't we all? That doesn't make anyone non binary.

It's a nonsensical term that means nothing at all.

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/30/i-felt-like-i-was-born-again-first-non-binary-person-granted-uk-refugee-status

This person is a gay man who says: "Without the fear of the attitudes shown to me in my home country, I felt confident to explore my gender identity. I let my hair grow and I started to define myself as non-binary, because I love the best of both of sides of the spectrum: I love gorgeous long blond hair, along with regular man clothes, and a touch of spice with my nail polish."

It appears that this person did suffer homophobic abuse in their home country, but seems to have only identified as non binary once in the safety of the UK. They weren't actually persecuted for their non-binariness but for being gay.

So there we have it. Non binary for females = mastectomies and testosterone. Non binary for males = long hair and nail polish.

Treating the body...

I'm beyond horrified at this. How on earth can a medical professional even consider removing healthy body parts?? What happened to "Do no harm"??

It's extreme self harm and abuse in plain sight. It breaks my heart.