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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Stephanie Davies-Arai and Benjamin Boyce

32 replies

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 28/12/2020 11:55

Very long interview (1hr 45 mins). I'm about halfway through. Some extremely interesting ideas here. I was very struck by her statement that some parents believe that their child is born with a fully formed personality and their job is to facilitate the child's passage through life. She feels this is why some go down the affirmation route when the child does what so many children do, for all sorts of reasons, ie claim to be the opposite sex. A healthier approach would be to accept that in a child's mind fantasy and reality are not clearly separated, but in the material world we all have to live in there are certain things you just can't identify out of, and biological sex is one of them.

She also said very clearly that in her view there's a progression that starts with the narrow gender stereotypes which are now everywhere in a way that wasn't nearly so true when her children (and mine) were born in the early 90s. She feels that parents are bombarded with images that reinforce the idea that boys are rough, tough, physical creatures who love making noise and getting dirty, and girls are fragile creatures whose main focus is looking pretty and keeping clean to protect their delicate, fragile clothes.

From that it's a short step to believing that a child who doesn't fit those stereotypes has something wrong with them, and unforgivably all the professionals who could step in and say 'Nope, perfectly normal child, let her/him just get on with being a child' have instead said 'Oh yes, children have an innate gender identity, listen to your child, they know best, so yes, of course, go ahead and socially transition your child'.

And having done that, once puberty hits, of course the child is absolutely stunned to find out that they haven't changed sex, as everybody has been telling them for years. So it's on to puberty blockers, and then on to cross-hormones, and then surgery.

Another excellent point I was pleased to her getting across was that there is a huge focus on accepting adults who transition as valid regardless of what changes they make to their body or way of dressing, all in marked contrast to the big push to get children's bodies medically altered to make them look more like the opposite sex.

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Molesmokes · 04/01/2021 03:20

Relevant Benjamin Boyce Playlists (there is overlap with some videos being in more than one playlist):

DeTrans Stories

youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRdayXEOwuMFyH-mBwSdI3L2cu4VLznTf

PostModernism

youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRdayXEOwuMF-GByzvVTSETrR4JCxFFpU

The Helen/a Collection

youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRdayXEOwuMFFjNjUISb7MpmgDArXMmVx

The Sasha Collection

youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRdayXEOwuMG9ldRo4qNPACwYwV9Ry-RT

Gender, Sexuality and Transition (Interviews)

youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRdayXEOwuMH3f0pmZqVQUU62rgJIzvt9

There are a load of other videos. If you ever want to know what happened at Evergreen College, check out BB’s Evergreen playlists.

( Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g thanks for adding that to “Break It Down For Me” ❤️)

nauticant · 03/01/2021 21:31

There are some really interesting discussions on Boyce's channel. Take this new video for example:

www.youtube.com/watch?t=1386&v=rhq7xuCQpAM

Boyce talks with Katherine Deves, Co-founder of Save Women's Sport Australasia. There's linking together of what's going on in number of countries where resistance is happening. The link I've included starts from the point where the discussion is about proposed new legislation in Victoria:

engage.vic.gov.au/changeorsuppression

This sounds more extreme and more insane than what we have in the UK and might actually be even worse what there is in Canada. It is jaw-dropping.

PamDenick · 03/01/2021 09:22

Looks interesting. Will take a listen.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 03/01/2021 09:16

Thanks, @Molesmokes, I've added it to that thread. Also thanks for the transcript. Glad so many have found this interesting and thought-provoking.

OP posts:
Molesmokes · 03/01/2021 01:07

Benjamin Boyce has done a lot of fantastic interviews on this subject but I think this is the best yet. I have never seen Stephanie talk before and this blew me away for the range that she covered. Needs adding to the “Break it down for me” thread if it is not there already - it covers so much in one video that is scattered around elsewhere in parts.

I agree with you, nauticant - that was a good catch!

Transcript of the exchange at that point:

Benjamin Boyce:
“I think again, this issue about gender, this issue about trans kids, this one issue encapsulates so much about our society and our society's relationship to truth.

This is one area in which activist language that is that is purposed not to describe reality but to change reality towards a certain group's outcome, the the meddling around with our relationship with reality through language and through activism, has a tremendous consequence for children and for all of society.

This one issue is a is a flash point in that, but it also affects the activist push to change language that is operating on other domains.

It’s operating in science by means of intersectionality. And all these other things with regards to gender brings to light just how powerful truth and lies are in covering up how things are actually.

You know, this is how the sausage is being made to produce this desired outcome that you can't talk about, that you can't critique, that you can't be skeptical about even without, you know, receiving, you know, harassment or, you know, other other forms of punishment.

So this one thing has consequences and it brings to light a lot of other issues that our society is going through.”

Stephanie Davies-Arai:
“Yeah, there's a lot of, you know you can see how the trans agenda is affecting the world of science and it is we, we have to you know, I feel we again, with children, it pulls the rug of reality out from under children that you cannot you understand, you know at an age when children don't really, are still learning the difference between fantasy and reality anyway.

Because if there's nothing stable then it's chaos and life becomes chaos.“

www.youtube.com/watch?t=5334&v=KsmJN9jYfR0

PearPickingPorky · 01/01/2021 19:40

@Novina

I can't help but feel that BB's response to Adam Wagner today was influenced by the clarity of thought shown by Stephanie in this interview.
Oh yes, he's definitely been thinking deeply about what Stephanie said in her interview. Good for him.
nauticant · 01/01/2021 19:23

That's an essential watch. It's great to see how pleased Stephanie Davies-Arai is to have out-performed Stonewall and Mermaids in this battle even though she's a barely-funded shoestring operation up against giants with large numbers of staff and, from her extremely modest position, unlimited funds. Clue: she was arguing from a factual evidence base and they were arguing from ideological positions and using emotional blackmail.

Even though I've been following this stuff for years, there were many points where, hearing what has been going on expressed in clear terms, I was caught off guard. You can certainly see that happening to Benjamin Boyce.

If you want to know what drew him into this subject, I think this captures the essence of it:

www.youtube.com/watch?t=5334&v=KsmJN9jYfR0 (this link goes directly to about one and a half hours in)

Awning10 · 01/01/2021 19:08

I think as many people as possible need to see this to raise awareness. It's great to see it posted on other Twitter threads. I've forwarded it to carefully selected friends.

Scout2016 · 01/01/2021 18:42

Thanks OP this was very well explained.
I studied the history of childhood as part of my Uni course and find it fascinating where we are at now. Everything we know about development, cognitive functioning the impact of societal and political influences goes out the window for some people when it comes to "trans" children. It's spot on to say they have been failed and lied to.

persistentwoman · 01/01/2021 18:20

Just listened to this. It's such a pleasure to listen to adults speaking about the importance of speaking the truth to children, the importance of adults establishing boundaries. Stephanie is so knowledgeable and insightful about children. It makes such a change to see children and their rights / needs being centred in all this rather than adult demands.

queenofknives · 31/12/2020 17:49

Brilliant. I do feel like the people speaking about this stuff are getting clearer and clearer all the time - and Stephanie Arai is one of the most extremely clear and accessible speakers. (Recommend Triggernometry's latest episode with Andrew Doyle for clarity about where we're at in general.)

Novina · 30/12/2020 16:24

I can't help but feel that BB's response to Adam Wagner today was influenced by the clarity of thought shown by Stephanie in this interview.

Stephanie Davies-Arai and Benjamin Boyce
youkiddingme · 30/12/2020 15:52

I was very struck by her statement that some parents believe that their child is born with a fully formed personality and their job is to facilitate the child's passage through life.

This strikes me because I have seen people who think like this. These same people ( and this is just an observation of some I know not suggesting this is a global fact), feel that their views were not heard or respected when they were children. They don't seem to do the, 'Oh wow, I used to believe, think, when I was younger...' thing where we reflect and realise we thought or did some odd stuff in our youth. Do they believe they were always spot on and that their kids are too?

testing987654321 · 30/12/2020 15:51

So glad this was recommended, I've nearly listened to all of it this afternoon. Fascinating stuff, especially the bit about the Keira Bell case and how useless stonewall and mermaids were.

Socrates11 · 30/12/2020 12:12

Excellent interview (not finished it yet). I especially like how Stephanie lays out the problem with confusing the meaning of language. It gets to the heart of the matter. Reason and logic have to win the day. The Enlightenment scientists understood this (even before the word scientist was coined) at a time when unevidenced theology was in command... Beliefs are not evidence no matter how strongly they are held.

RozWatching · 29/12/2020 12:21

@Melroses

I tend to skip through a lot of stuff these days - heard it over and over.

But I have listened to all 1h 45 minutes of this.

She is very knowledgeable and compelling.

Same - this was well worth listening to.
queenofknives · 29/12/2020 11:28

Great, am listening! Really insightful and amazing discussion. I'm impressed with how BB has developed his understanding of the issues over the last couple of years, too.

ScreamingBeans · 28/12/2020 22:37

I was doing stuff around the house when I was listening to this and I can't believe it was 2 hours, it was totally absorbing.

Thanks for posting.

Thanks Stephanie, you're a marvel!

Campervan69 · 28/12/2020 22:11

I can't believe that was nearly 2 hours. Was so absorbing. Spent the afternoon listening to it. Amazing woman.

persistentwoman · 28/12/2020 22:07

Agree with all the comments on here. Stephanie is an outstanding woman with an in depth knowledge of the issues and a huge empathy for children and their parents.
We are very lucky to have her and Transgender Trend. Flowers

SisterWendyBuckett · 28/12/2020 22:00

We have so much to thank Stephanie for.

She's kept me sane throughout some very dark times.

AnotherLass · 28/12/2020 21:43

This is a really brilliant interview. One day Stephanie will be given proper recognition for the amazing work she's done.

MerchedCymru · 28/12/2020 21:13

I wouldn't normally manage a 1hr 45 minute interview in one hit but this was knockout. Stephanie is so knowledgeable and has a knack of explaining issues in a way that gets to the crux of the lunacy.

It's astonishing that people are still swallowing this, and continuing to abdicate responsibility and hand over decision-making to children. Particularly children who have been endlessly affirmed in their fantasy.

I agree OP, so important to highlight the contradiction between 'accepting adults who transition as valid regardless of what changes they make to their body or way of dressing' versus 'the big push to get children's bodies medically altered to make them look more like the opposite sex'. It's chilling.

She has done so much to change this narrative. An absolute shero.

Melroses · 28/12/2020 20:53

I would go and hear her, if we ever get back to any sort of normality.

GenderCriticalGoddess · 28/12/2020 20:47

Absolutely amazing woman, I have had the privilege of hearing her speak twice.
So determined to advocate for children and young people.