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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/12/2020 09:22

Maybe some of the turn towards embracing different gender identities is driven by a need to establish some kind of control or boundaries around sexual activity

Also declaring yourself as "ace" (asexual)

carlaCox · 28/12/2020 09:11

It really upsets me that even children's charities aren't taking the damage that comes with viewing porn at a young age seriously. I remember the first time I was exposed to porn very vividly. I was about 11 and it was a GQ magazine which had pictures of the "world's largest gangbang". It was essentially a pornstar in the back of a van with a queue of hundreds of disgusting looking men lining up to have sex with her. There were graphic details in there about the whole process which I won't burden you all with. I genuinely believe that it has negatively affected me to this day and yet this is nothing compared to the kinds of stuff available online now.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 28/12/2020 09:11

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

If my relationship broke down or my husband were to pre-decease me, I have no interest in another relationship because I have no interest in navigating modern mores in this area. Given what I hear about the behaviour of some older men, I wouldn't even feel that knowing a chap for a long time would give me insight into how he would behave in an intimate relationship.
Snap.
queenofknives · 28/12/2020 09:10

Oh that's such a good insight about OLD. I might even go further and say that social media in general encourages this view of each other as not quite real. It is almost like social media is real, and real life is a poor imitation (a world where you're not in control of everything). It is noticeable that young people also produce a lot of images of themselves, including lots of sexual images. It's almost like they are more real and present online than in the physical, material world. That has to be affecting their sense of themselves as living in bodies, and their awareness of the needs and integrity of their bodies. In fact I think people are often quite alienated from their bodies. It all adds up to quite a frightening picture.

OP posts:
queenofknives · 28/12/2020 09:00

I think I agree with your illiberal view chestnut. Actually I think that because this is happening to children and young people there is a case for arguing adults need to protect them. The trouble is we don't want adults involved in adolescents' sex lives. But it seems utterly terrifying to just leave them to try to work this out for themselves.

You're right too, that this is lizard brain stuff. And sexuality can come with a deep sense of shame.

Thanks for these insights. I wish I knew how to push back against this stuff.

OP posts:
BounceyBumblebee · 28/12/2020 08:53

I wonder if the way people are meeting sexual partners is having an impact on how they are treating each other in the sack.

I'm slightly to old for OLD. So I, like many other women of my age met my partner in the work place. The only other way to meet a partner was through education settings, mutual friends or chance meetings. In all bar the last, your partner knows you as a full person, mutual respect, friendship and effection would usually be present before you get to the bedroom. So unless the man is a sadist, he's not going to want to inflict pain on you. I know my dh doesn't want to see me chocking or wincing in pain. Most humans don't actually want to inflict pain on others outside of in anger.

In the world of OLD, you don't really know your date, they could be anyone. They are just the human embodyment of an online character. It's therefore eaiser to dehumanise your date, instead using them as a vessel to indulge your fantasy, or try out the porn acts you have seen IRL.

I wonder if the men who are choking and smacking dates, would also do that to a work colleague they started a romantic relationship with. Much in the same way a man will be violent and abusive to a sex worker but the perfect gent to his wife.

Sex is so easy to acsess and so impersonal now. It must be having an impact on how the participants behave. And if your victim partner doesn't like it - so what, you never have to see them again, and there is a million other prospective partners just a click away.

ChestnutStuffing · 28/12/2020 03:00

To add to that - the underlying problem is the whole liberal premise, which is that our personal experience is fine, whatever it is, so long as it isn't imposed on others.

Now, in this case there is some real reason to say it is being imposed on others. But in society at large, people are not willing to make the leap from that to say, the way this person has been formed by their culture, their sexual experience, their beliefs, is unhealthy to them and society at large. They don't want to say, actually, we should not encourage people to be turned on by x, y, or z. Not only might it impact others badly, it is bad for those individuals in terms of mental health, how they relate to others, etc. Because we don't want to put a moral spin on it, that's anti-liberal. People have to decide what is a healthy sexuality themselves, and we are very uncomfortable talking about a moral sexuality at all.

I would say, a sexual life that revolves around pretend violence, or even fantasy life that revolves around it, is not healthy. Not only because one day it might affect others, but because it is not good for the individual, it affects how they think and feel about other people. Maybe only a little, sometimes, but maybe not. People should try and avoid thinking that way, and while it's human to fail at times we can avoid exposing ourselves to thinks that make it harder.

But that's a very illiberal view on my part.

ChestnutStuffing · 28/12/2020 02:52

@queenofknives

I'm so sorry Drizzle. That sounds horrendous.

I do believe there are 'normal' young men out there who are repulsed by porn and who genuinely like women and want to share sexual intimacy. However, I also think that the general culture makes them the outliers and weirdos. It is really distressing to think about how sex looks more and more like assault, but porn is so inhumane and actually anti-human, I have to believe that many young people will start to reject it altogether.

The thing with porn is that it's designed to create a sexual response, it's not really anyone's fault that it does that when you are a teenager.

It can be an issue with girls as well, and that's something that needs thinking about - a friend of mine who works in school counselling says she now sees a lot more girls confused about a variety of sexual issues, because they've watched porn and found all kinds of things arousing. The tendency now is to see these things as identity issues. This may well play into young women accepting certain things from boys they are involved with. It's one thing to be aroused by something you see, and another to actually do it, but many aren't very aware of that. Especially since many young women take some time to figure themselves out sexually even under normal circumstances.

The cultural trappings of sex can be pretty elaborate and strange, IMO, without people rejecting them on a wide basis. Maybe because our internal experience of it is so far from a rational process, it's very lizard-brain stuff. Our experience of sex shapes us in a basic way that can stay with us, even when we know it's unhealthy.

notyourhandmaid · 28/12/2020 02:11

This is so bleak.

Men have always pressured women into sexual acts - not that women don't enjoy sex, but they (tend to) have a lower sex drive and also are aware of the potential consequences. The risk is greater; the potential for pleasure lesser (seeing as studies consistently show how women are less likely than men to orgasm during penetrative sex).

I understand the impulse many young women have to go along with all of this and be 'cool' and not be 'prudes' - to view it as 'empowering'. And maybe it is for some. But genuine empowerment lets you say 'no' too.

SantasAnus · 28/12/2020 01:25

I often wonder if this is part of the reason why young people are engaged in so much 'identity' exploration - instead of sex seeming like an exciting adventure to embark upon, it probably seems quite terrifying (to both sexes). Maybe some of the turn towards embracing different gender identities is driven by a need to establish some kind of control or boundaries around sexual activity

Wow, this has genuinely never crossed my mind, but it absolutely makes sense! Especially due to the expectations of young girls, sexually. I'm sure they are fully aware of the type of porn boys are watching these days.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 28/12/2020 00:58

sexual expression as a women seems to be more and more about demonstrating 'empowerment' by claiming ownership over and enjoyment in degradation

This. It's like men claiming the 'right' to occupy women'-only spaces. Why did this happen? When and where did society take such a crazy wrong turn?

Gurufloof · 27/12/2020 23:00

There are lots of normal men out there, quite happy with more 'normal' consensual sexual activity
So like how do we tell the normal ones from the pornsick ones without sleeping with them?
I'm of the same mind as pps, I will not bother with men again come the end of my current ltr.

queenofknives · 27/12/2020 22:28

I'm not sure why you felt the need to say that @PlainHonesty. I'd say being raped is more than a 'sad story' and the experiences discussed in the article are not 'sad' - they are abusive.

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PlainHonesty · 27/12/2020 20:37

Some very sad stories here. It's not all bad though. There are lots of normal men out there, quite happy with more 'normal' consensual sexual activity.

xxyzz · 27/12/2020 20:12

@queenofknives

I tend to see it much the same way as you HecatesCats. It is really upsetting to think of young women and girls having to negotiate these sorts of expectations. I often wonder if this is part of the reason why young people are engaged in so much 'identity' exploration - instead of sex seeming like an exciting adventure to embark upon, it probably seems quite terrifying (to both sexes). Maybe some of the turn towards embracing different gender identities is driven by a need to establish some kind of control or boundaries around sexual activity.

I'm not really saying anything new there, I know, but sex and dating seems really scary these days. And of course, it makes women really, really vulnerable. If sexual violence is 'normal' and porn normalises men getting off on violently abusing women, then no doubt many women are having horrible, abusive sexual experiences and blaming themselves for not enjoying it.

Insightful post, thank you.
EmbarrassingAdmissions · 27/12/2020 18:33

If my relationship broke down or my husband were to pre-decease me, I have no interest in another relationship because I have no interest in navigating modern mores in this area. Given what I hear about the behaviour of some older men, I wouldn't even feel that knowing a chap for a long time would give me insight into how he would behave in an intimate relationship.

queenofknives · 27/12/2020 17:56

I'm so sorry Drizzle. That sounds horrendous.

I do believe there are 'normal' young men out there who are repulsed by porn and who genuinely like women and want to share sexual intimacy. However, I also think that the general culture makes them the outliers and weirdos. It is really distressing to think about how sex looks more and more like assault, but porn is so inhumane and actually anti-human, I have to believe that many young people will start to reject it altogether.

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HecatesCats · 27/12/2020 17:23

@Yogatomorrow

It pains me to see organisations like Childline assisting with the normalisation of - what is increasingly violent - porn.

What has ChildLine done?

They take a pretty relaxed attitude about kids watching porn. When we know that many of the most popular porn sites contain extremely concerning content, to say the least. This is guidance for ages 12+

"Is it normal to watch porn?
Watching porn is a choice, and whether you choose to watch it or not is completely normal. Only you can decide if watching porn is something you feel comfortable about

Watching porn when you’re under 18 isn’t against the law and you shouldn’t have to feel worried or ashamed about it. You won’t get in trouble if you watch it yourself"

Blubellsarebells · 27/12/2020 17:16

Drizzle Flowers
Im so sorry.
Shocking how bad the police are.
Scary that the bastard is free to do the same to other women.

20mum · 27/12/2020 17:06

It would be interesting to know how same-sex couples' power balance works. One would assume that a pair reasonably equal would have less likelihood of doing anything displeasing to the other under the pretence of pleasuring.
(Gay men who are not in stable relationships might be in a different situation perhaps, in withstanding pressure to do what they prefer not?)

HecatesCats · 27/12/2020 17:04

I'm so sorry Drizzle Thanks

DrizzleandDamp · 27/12/2020 16:59

Oh and yes I’d agree, men no longer care for woman’s pleasure during sex, apart from to make them feel they’ve “achieved” something and MADE someone finish. It’s a different mindset, like pride, than actually caring for someone else’s enjoyment.

HecatesCats · 27/12/2020 16:58

@Blubellsarebells

"Women socialised to please males must absorb this and pretend to enjoy it too, indeed their 'enjoyment' is now necessary to demonstrate their 'empowerment'." I dont think some of them care if we enjoy it or not. The last man I slept with admitted to me he didn't. Awful experience all round. Knowing that most of them are so porn sick really puts me off trying to start a relationship.
That does indeed sound awful Bluebell. I'm sorry you you had to experience that.

In terms of expressing enjoyment as empowerment I guess I was thinking about the reference in the article to popular culture. How sexual expression as a women seems to be more and more about demonstrating 'empowerment' by claiming ownership over and enjoyment in degradation.

DrizzleandDamp · 27/12/2020 16:57

I’m currently fighting to have my case (3yrs in) taken to court from being subjected to a horrific BDSM rape, including very niche practices. I’ve never had an interest in BDSM and he didn’t give a shit. The failure of the police is astonishing because you can’t be clear on consent apparently as soon as violence is involved.

It’s affecting everything, the legal system isn’t built to protect us from this rise in porn obsessed culture. The amount of men online obsessed with slapping and choking now means I’m just staying single unless I meet someone normal in real life.

When they are old enough I’ll have to teach my girls what is and isn’t normal, it terrifies me. I’m not a Mary whitehouse but is happily have porn banned.

Babdoc · 27/12/2020 16:53

Cross posted with you, Prawn - I think most women of our era would agree.

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