Casual sexual violence in dating

I appreciate the engagement. I do see your point. I will still advise my children to wait if they feel able (both sexes) and that sex should not involve violence. Given that we tell children to abhor violence in all other situations you wouldn’t think that would be controversial but somehow it does seem to be now.

Is there a link to current campaigning on violent porn? I’d like to get involved. Even though I know it is going to be like the labours of Hercules .

So the increase in sexual encounters that involve casual violence, that's just inevitable? Nothing to do with exposure to porn or the way men perceive women?

I don't think there has ever been a time when it has not been a risk to have a fairly anonymous sexual encounter with someone you have no real social contact with.

It's true that even 20 years ago the sexual expectations were different. But it's always been the case that a person you are alone with, who you don't know and who doesn't have any real reason to care about you, could be a dangerous person. Plenty of sexual assaults, or even just sex that is damaging, take place under those conditions and always has.

It's the same reason we tell people not to hitchhike. Sure, we should be able to trust that someone who offers us a lift will be just normal and take us down the road. Most are. But it's a risk.

It was the posts about OLD being impersonal that actually prompted me to post my thoughts.

I was brought up in a very conservative environment (won’t surprise you!) so I find current mores somewhat baffling, I must admit (for boys and girls both).

Im horrified by violent porn and dreading my children being exposed to it. What can be done?

We can say it shouldn't be all we like but a sexual marketplace is by nature risky.

Chestnut I can't work out why you are ignoring the issues raised repeatedly on this thread. The proliferation and accessibility of abuse based porn is leading to the normalisation of violence in sexual relationships. This isn't good for anyone's self esteem but since women are for the most part the ones upon whom the violence is being carried out, it's particularly dangerous for women. We're seeing this with the rise of the rough sex defence as PPs have pointed out. The sexual 'marketplace' is by nature risky if you're selling sex, it shouldn't be risky in the average adult relationship because we should be raising boys and men to have respect for women, girls and women to have respect for themselves and we should be calling out violent, exploitative and degrading porn for what it is.

But if you fall into women should wait it still puts the onus on the woman. Yes it’s a fact that one night stands carry more risk, yes it’s a fact avoiding them makes someone safer but it’s a slippery slope to victims blaming.

Also it doesn’t eliminate risk, domestic violence and abuse shows us that women can know these men for a very long time before they show their abusive nature. It’s not only “promiscuous” women who don’t wait that get hurt.

We are still more likely to be raped and abused by a man we know. So time isn’t really a factor...

I think women felt they'd gotten to a place where they could have one night stands and casual flings without fear of being degraded or abused. That was certainly my experience in my late teens and early twenties. But times have changed now and sadly I do think women need to be far more wary. I met my partner about 5 years ago through mutual friends and, before we'd ever taken our clothes off, I outright asked him what he thought about this kind of violent and degrading sex/pornography. He was horrified at the thought of it but I had to ask just in order to feel comfortable getting into bed with him. Fortunately I was in my late twenties and confident enough to do that, I don't think it's as easy for young girls.

Grellbrunt I don't think you should stop posting on FWR. I do think I would approach this from a different direction. Violent porn is a problem. Male entitlement is a problem. Male pattern violence is w problem. These are the things causing the violence. Let's address them and call them out, because telling women to police their behaviour, to stay at home, to avoid contact, is not managing the problem.

Don't go Grellbunt
I didn't take your post as victim blaming.
I think many women have one night stands and some are fun and some best forgotten but they don't usually lead to long term relationships. With the normalisation of violence in sex I think it's quite reasonable to wonder if it wouldn't be wise to take things more slowly. I don't in any way absolve the men or blame the women.

Discussion up thread is very relevant I feel.

*In the world of OLD, you don't really know your date, they could be anyone. They are just the human embodyment of an online character. It's therefore eaiser to dehumanise your date, instead using them as a vessel to indulge your fantasy, or try out the porn acts you have seen IRL.

I wonder if the men who are choking and smacking dates, would also do that to a work colleague they started a romantic relationship with. Much in the same way a man will be violent and abusive to a sex worker but the perfect gent to his wife.

Sex is so easy to acsess and so impersonal now. It must be having an impact on how the participants behave. And if your victim partner doesn't like it - so what, you never have to see them again, and there is a million other prospective partners just a click away.*

Don’t stop posting, believe me I spent a lot of time rationalising and kept landing where you are, that this was my fault. I still fight that now. I should have waited longer, I should have never gone to his home, I should have picked up the red flags, maybe I wasn’t enough when I cried and screamed, maybe he thought it was a game, maybe I should have been clearer in my “nos” maybe I should not have frozen maybe I should have tried to run.

Spending time learning helps, spending time realising there is literally nothing you can do to truly keep yourself completely safe helps. That when they have decided to abuse there is nothing you can do to stop them and that’s not your fault. It’s a hard realisation but true.

These men don’t portray their actions earlier unless they are upfront and belong on specialist “sites”. They inherently know what they want is rarely what a woman wants and consciously or unconsciously (which is more scary) use her natural desire to please and be trusting to coerce a situation. I believe that man I reported genuinely convinces himself he’s done nothing wrong as he’s picked more vulnerable women to abuse before. But for that I won’t let it go.

And it isn’t yet all men, I have male friends and family who I believe would not want to hurt someone. But good men get tarred and the cycle loops to a worse place.

There is some risk for a man from a woman but that is in terms of things like STIs which of course work both ways.

We can say it shouldn't be all we like but a sexual marketplace is by nature risky.

I do think it would be a shame though if discussions about the wisdom or otherwise of sleeping with strangers and seeing sex as something completely separate from an ongoing relationship were entirely off limits . Seems to me that while you may end up with a fab one night stand, it’s pretty risky. I don’t see why that shouldn’t be discussed. Do you really think this has nothing to do with the problem? Men and teen boys clearly have normalised the idea that they should get access to female bodies pretty much immediately and with no effort whatsoever - and even worse, access to abuse them. How can we change this expectation? You’re right, women are not to blame for male violence but we can’t change things on our own can we? What can we realistically do?

I’m just desperately trying to rationalise and find some sort of answer to this all of this because it is so depressing. I’m not in bad faith - I just genuinely can’t understand opening up to someone that quickly as I’m a very closed person who doesn’t trust anyone (including even on a friendship level).

Sorry this happened to everyone.

I’m going to stop posting in feminism I think.

And actually I think that you should be able to sleep with someone when you want and not expect to be abused and attacked.

Women. Are. Not. To. Blame. For. Male. Violence.

You’re right Grellbunt it was my own fault for being a slag, you should join the police.

I spoke to him for a few months before, I felt I knew him, clearly not. And actually I think that you should be able to sleep with someone when you want and not expect to be abused and attacked. That’s on them not the women.

The thing about 50 shades (apart from it being a book and not an actual filming of a real woman being beaten/strangled) is that Christian Grey was not depicted as a normal man. It was quite clear in the book that his BDSM preferences arose from him being abused horribly as a child and then abused sexually as a young teenager. yeah it was a crap book but he was written as a deeply damaged abnormal man struggling with his demons- and being careful to get consent in writing - not mainstream, just what every man is like.

What kills me for my kid and especially for my daughters, is the idea that normal everyday men you might meet and have a date with - no back story- no abuse - might really like strangling you or having anal with minimal consent or not give a fuck about your pleasure, just because.

Drizzleanddamp and others - I'm so sorry men did this to you.

Ah, I’ve just realised that this is feminism chat...

I’m going to be slated no doubt as old fashioned, but is it a good idea to have sex with someone you hardly know? Maybe there is value in getting to know someone before moving to sex. Surely sex should be gatekept a bit? I wouldn’t want to get so vulnerable with someone until I was sure I actually liked them and they were at least halfway decent. Does that mean if I were young today I’d be single forever because nobody would keep dating me?

Zorro that breaks my heart, those poor girls.

Drizzle, MrsFluffyMuff and Bluebells thank you for sharing your different experiences. They are important contributions to the discussion.

From what I've seen of the young women showing off bruising on platforms like TikTok I'd say it's much worse now. Anything like that would have rung huge alarm bells when I was a teenager in the 90s. It's NOT OK.

A post from Rosie Redstockings that illustrates the situation for young women.

realforwomen.wordpress.com/2015/04/08/in-response-to-owen-jones-rosie-redstockings-on-porn/