James O'Brien 'How not to be Wrong'

He has no skin in the game which he also admits.

But if he has daughters, a wife, a mother, then he does have skin in the game. This is why I keep up the fight. For my daughter.

"What is very interesting is he says that when he went shopping with his daughters he went into the changing rooms to see the clothes they tried on."

Wow. That tells us everything we need to know about his thoughts on legal sex segregated provision for women and girls. No decent bloke with an ounce of common sense would think this was ok.

"What is very interesting is he says that when he went shopping with his daughters he went into the changing rooms to see the clothes they tried on."

As a bloke who has patiently waited outside women's changing rooms, whilst my wife tries on clothes, I find that disturbing. As far as I am concerned, women's changing rooms are off limits to men.

Hopefully he'll shut up about Brexit now.

2020wumben

I agree. That's how I started exploring it. I think that it's a good sign that someone in the public eye can even be open to hearing both sides. He'll probably get flack for not being 100% for all the demands of the TRAs and for still being unsure.

I've also heard him be concerned about women experiencing higher rates of sexual assault. I think that he is a good representation of those on the fence who share similar political view points to him. (Not many men on the left in the public eye say that they are unsure).

MissLucy

Agree! He sneers at anyone who supported Brexit and openly characterises them as stupid. He is ghastly - and I say that as an ardent remainer.

He also can't win any argument without using the mute button. Easy to win if you can cut off your opponent mid-sentance

Absolutely agree. And I am a staunch Remainer.

He will never 'get it' until one of his own daughters is sexually assaulted/perved at #metoo

And seeing as his views against women are out in the open for them to read about, they'll probably keep any sexual assaults/ #metoo moments secret from him so as to to not lose his fatherly approval.

midgebabe

Women want trans people to have all human rights

And extra trans specific rights because they need them

Happy also for transmen to retain their sex based women's rights ( they don't have to avail themselves of them)

Not happy if transwomen who are biologically male want to claim female sex based rights

Perfectly put midge.

He also can't win any argument without using the mute button. Easy to win if you can cut off your opponent mid-sentence.

What is very interesting is he says that when he went shopping with his daughters he went into the changing rooms to see the clothes they tried on.

I find this very odd.

The standard norm is that the men hover outside the invisible barrier. And the women/ girls put the stuff on and emerge so they can have a look from the other side of the invisible barrier.

He says he went in with permission. From who? That is not clear.

The fact that he felt comfortable going into the women's fitting rooms, which is definitely IME just a no-no. Shows a certain self centred attitude, lack of consideration, and general arrogance.

I mean it's just Not Done.

Similarly, I hover outside the blokes ones and DH comes out so I can judge the clothes.

So he is coming at this from a certain angle of entitled cluelessness.

Like I say though. Given the readership of the book. His oblivious bloke status. It could have been a lot worse. He writes about how women live in a context of male dodginess and so it's understandable they don't want any dick people in there etc

The focus on bogs gets my goat.

This pants check thing.

NO. The point is. That men can be creepy without breaking laws. That there are a lot of weirdos about. Before men weren't supposed to be in there, and women tended to turn a blind eye. But if there was anything iffy, we could get him removed. Because men weren't supposed to be in there. Now, that option is eroded. Can you ask them to leave? Get the bouncer etc? Or, is that potentially a hate crime?

I've just read the whole chapter.

Interesting. A lot to take issue with from a GC pov. But also. He says he just doesn't know. It confuses him. He talks to one person and thinks one thing, another person another.

He has no skin in the game which he also admits.

All in all he comes out on the be kind side. But he also says he feels that it's not right to have males in women's stuff on their say so. He quotes the JKR tweet that started it all off.

I think for a mainstream thing it's ok. I think he's not quite there yet. And the bits about right wing people leveraging the trans thing for their own ends is interesting.

Yeah I'm ok. This is a mainstream book remember. And while landing on one side, he acknowledges that its not cut and dried and he's really not sure.

My read on it is that he's referencing the right to be treated as female across the board.

Prisons sports hospitals etc etc

Which is of course where women do has he concerns.

The only group with a binary view of gender seems to be trans people.
I generally quite like JOB, but he's not thought about this properly.

That some women fear affording trans people (note, he means trans women here, bias on show) the same rights as women will damage women's equality is true.

I'm not sure what rights you are talking about?

Both sex and gender reassignment are protected characteristics.

What is strange about the "genital checks" argument is that it's assuming that we don't know a persons sex the vast majority of the time.

Women's spaces have been set up for years without the need for genital checks. Why are males threatening us with them now?

I've read the page copied.

It doesn't seem so bad?

Certainly the people fighting for, if they really believe that gender id trumps physical sex, do think they're fighting a righteous battle. The false stats etc all add to this.

That some women fear affording trans people (note, he means trans women here, bias on show) the same rights as women will damage women's equality is true.

And there are I'm sure plenty of religious/ traditional groups who dislike gender norms being broken, and people who verbally or physically attack GNC people.

Yes the description of the pro group is not nuanced.

I'm happy to read it though. In fact will do so now and report back

I got the first book and got the second today as a gift.

I enjoyed reading the first although I don't agree with him on everything. Hopefully I'll the enjoy the second as well.

I don't listen to the radio so don't really know who he is tbh. I bought the first on impulse in the bookshop due to the cover things eg David Mitchell saying yay.

I'm trying to get a range of views these days. It helps to try and understand other perspectives in order to keep thinking is there anything in here that might make me rethink, to understand why people think things, and to argue.

'Those women who support male people using womens spaces need to realise that they are contributing to women being excluded from spaces designed for them.'

So true. There are women who just simply will not be able to use public facilities if there is any chance at all of meeting a man in there

Would most women mind if an obvious trams woman used the female loos? No. Would most women mind that any man who states he is a woman has the rights to enter a woman's space and be treated as a woman, including hospital wards, prisons etc? Of course.

It doesn't matter if most women would be happy for an "obvious trans woman" (a person who is obviously male?) to use the female toilets. The facilities are for women and women only, and for all women including the ones who aren't happy to share with male people.

Those women who support male people using womens spaces need to realise that they are contributing to women being excluded from spaces designed for them.