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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do you ever have sympathy for abusive men?

111 replies

COVIDcausesCHAOS · 22/12/2020 17:09

Does anyone fancy a chat about this?

I'm asking on FWR, as I know that many here are well-versed on this subject.

Last night, my partner and I were talking about Michael Jackson. I mentioned that I have quite a lot of sympathy for Michael, even though I do think he was guilty of abusing those children. My partner had far less sympathy, and said that he didn't feel anything but revulsion towards Jackson. My dp also pointed out that it is perhaps inconsistent to have sympathy for the likes of Jackson, but then not similar abusers, such as Jimmy Saville and Rolf Harris.

Is it wrong to have sympathy for some abusive men but not others?

Also, I feel guilty that I have sympathy for someone like Jackson. It must hurt his victims to hear people say that.

I'm wondering what other people's thought are on this?

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DontStopThinkingAboutTomorrow · 27/12/2020 09:43

@ickysticky

Male abusers, just like female abusers should not be seen as the monsters people make them out to be.

Most of the abuse I have suffered at the hands of men has genuinely been most of my own doing and a result of my own mental health issues rather than any of them being necessarily 'violent men', so I can definately empathise with some as I know for a fact at least 2 of the men that were violent with me have never lifted a finger to their partners after me, so it depends on the situation i guess.

Oh this is such a sad post. Unless in self defence, nobody has the right to hurt or abuse you, whatever you may have "done" to provoke them. People can not control your actions, but they can control their own responses- walking away, leaving the house etc are all options other than violence.
334bu · 27/12/2020 08:35

**Male abusers, just like female abusers should not be seen as the monsters people make them out to be.

Most of the abuse I have suffered at the hands of men has genuinely been most of my own doing and a result of my own mental health issues rather than any of them being necessarily 'violent men', so I can definately empathise with some as I know for a fact at least 2 of the men that were violent with me have never lifted a finger to their partners after me, so it depends on the situation i guess.**

Wow! Icky as you are on another thread also minimising male violence I think that you should consider that your stance might be suspect or very misguided and potentially harmful to yourself. Mental health issues aside nobody deserves to be abused by a man or a woman.

IamTomHanks · 27/12/2020 08:11

I have a lot of sympathy/empathy for the abused child they were, and I can mourn the person they could have been if not for that abuse, all, while at the same time hating the monster they became and believing they need to be separated from society.

What I struggle to understand is other people who can't do the same. Really makes me question how widespread empathy and sympathy actually are.

ickysticky · 27/12/2020 07:46

Male abusers, just like female abusers should not be seen as the monsters people make them out to be.

Most of the abuse I have suffered at the hands of men has genuinely been most of my own doing and a result of my own mental health issues rather than any of them being necessarily 'violent men', so I can definately empathise with some as I know for a fact at least 2 of the men that were violent with me have never lifted a finger to their partners after me, so it depends on the situation i guess.

MoleSmokes · 27/12/2020 05:16

Aubergina
@DandyMandy What's unbelievable is that a person would randomly choose to be a rapist or serial killer without having experienced trauma and/or psychological disorder

The only alternative is to believe that some people are evil in the absence of psychopathology. I struggle with that. Maybe it would be easier to believe if I was religious and could blame the devil?

I have have worked with some children who had severe behaviour disorders due to brain damage. There is no childhood diagnosis of Psychopath so their behaviour cannot be described as such. They were children who were loved and cared for, whose parents were worried sick about what would become of them as they got older.

They were children who could not be left unsupervised with other children because of the harm they would do to them. Children who were not rampaging, out of control monsters but often quiet and calm - and completely lacking in empathy.

One child, aged 7, was found calmly strangling another child because he found it interesting to watch another child struggle and cry. A girl, aged 10, picked up a high-heeled shoe that a teacher had absent-mindedly kicked off under the table, took it into a room where a sick child was sleeping and drove it into her eye.

Most of the time those children were sociable and their behaviour unremarkable but they were also unpredictable and extremely dangerous. The 7 yr old was in a special school and also had mild-moderate learning difficulties. The 10 yr old was actually in a secure unit when she blinded another child.

I have met other dangerous children who were fine until they suffered head injuries in childhood or who had developed brain tumours.

I have also met extremely dangerous adults who were fine until they suffered brain injuries or strokes.

There is a basic rule in medical diagnosis, “First exclude the organic.” That is, look for a physical problem before considering a psychiatric issue or environmental cause.

Whatever the reason for abusive behaviour, safeguarding has to be a priority. The case of the teenage schoolboy in Scotland who sexually assaulted a young girl (aged 6 ?) is a good example. The judge was excessively lenient because he had been accepted to study dentistry and he didn’t want his career to be ruined and also excused his behaviour as “naive experimentation” due to autism.

Absolutely horrifying and entirely inappropriate, IMHO. The judge showed no empathy for the victim and facilitated the abuser acquiring a position of trust that would give him access to other potential victims.

In that case, Autism was cited at the reason for the abusive behaviour by a judge whose own conduct was later revealed to have been very peculiar.

There are neurological conditions that can result in disinhibited sexual behaviour and that can include abusing others.

None of these reasons make it any less unpleasant, traumatising or dangerous for those who are abused. However, in some cases I think it would be hard not to feel some compassion for the abuser, which does not necessitate condoning their behaviour in the slightest.

Once upon a time, some of these people would have been incarcerated in long-stay psychiatric institutions. We became more tolerant as a society, deciding that “Care in the Community” was a more humane option.

Most people who would previously have been locked away out of sight and out of mind do not present any risk to anyone else at all.

There are some whoever who will instead end up in the criminal justice system. Behaviour that would have been tolerated in a psychiatric institution, such as compulsively masturbating in public, is not acceptable in “the Community” and causes distress to members of the public. Others might be violent and spend time in and out of prison. Not all will be capable of controlling their behaviour.

When I was 7 I was sexually assaulted by an adult male relative who had become sexually disinhibited after suffering a head injury. It was terrifying at the time but I cannot say it had any lasting impact except to make sure I was never left alone with him again. Similarly, when I was about 10 and a friend’s grandfather who was in the early stages of dementia grappled with me and attempted to sexually assault me.

It was much more frightening, even though the incident was less extreme, when around the same time a local headmaster grabbed me, sat me on his lap and pawed at my body. It was worse because even as a child I knew that this attack was calculated, determined and it was harder to escape.

I can forgive the first two assaults because those men were not in their right minds. I can also forgive all the male patients who wanked at me, tried to grope me, who made revolting, lascivious remarks. None of them were in their right minds and would have been horrified by their behaviour if they had suddenly recovered their senses.

That does not mean, however, that children and women should not be protected from men like these.

I could go on about abusive men suffering severe PTSD, particularly due to time in the services in armed conflict, but I won’t. Just to say to the PP who claimed that war veterans do not go on to abuse - you are wrong, some do and can be extremely violent. I have personal experience and have also discussed this with the wives, children or parents of veterans of WW1, WW2 and Vietnam.

SusanNightingale · 25/12/2020 19:22

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DontStopThinkingAboutTomorrow · 25/12/2020 13:04

I have every sympathy for those who were abused as children.

I feel very sad when I see the pattern repeating.

I don't have sympathy for those who abuse, even if I feel sad their life turned out that way.

OhioOhioOhio · 25/12/2020 11:40

The sympathy I had stopped me leaving. I should have given up hope years before I did. He was extremely organised about his behaviour.

ChestnutStuffing · 25/12/2020 04:44

I'm sorry but I just categorically do not believe that the vast majority of abusers, barring actual psychosis, cannot help themselves. They want to believe they cannot help themselves, maybe they've even convinced themselves they couldn't, but if they have the wherewithal to target someone weaker than themselves, and in the case of non-parental child abuse, get a child on their own to abuse them, then they full well knew what they were doing and did so because they wanted to.

Most abuse that happens isn't of that kind, though, where it involves targeting and grooming and even planning - and you also seem to mean sexual abuse specifically whereas lots of abuse isn't sexual.

Even much sexual abuse is opportunistic, rather than targeted. But a lot of abuse is stuff in the home, where you have a parent or parents who aren't able to regulate their actions and emotions, or can't function as parents for some reason, which can lead to significant neglect and emotional and physical abuse, and sometimes even sexual abuse.

ChestnutStuffing · 25/12/2020 04:36

I think SenslessUbiquity's post is really very good.

I do think we have some kind of free will, but anyone who thinks it's that simple is fooling themselves.

If that was true, people would not buy gym memberships they never use, go off their diets, say something mean to their partner or kids when they are in a bad mood or someone says something hurtful the them, or a million other things we all know aren't right. That's to say nothing about stuff like shoplifting.

Most of us don't really want to hurt other people. But abuse victims, both women and men, sometimes are not able to form quite normal relationships and don't have the same internal barriers because of their experience. Women tend to express this differently than men, more inwardly than outwardly, but you still see very negative social behaviours that they have poor control over. And a poor understanding of what is normal behaviour, or how to live that way.

None of this means it's ok to just let them carry on, or what they did wasn't so bad.

OhioOhioOhio · 24/12/2020 19:17

But how do you believe them?

JudyGemstone · 24/12/2020 08:53

I'm a psychotherapist and for years have been working in the field of sexual trauma with survivors, treating PTSD/C-PTSD/EUPD and the like. I have nothing but deep empathy and respect for anyone who's been through this and have seen how they can thrive after therapeutic help.

I've just agreed to do some sessional work with an amazing sound DV organisation providing therapy to perpetrators.

For a psychotherapist I think that having a belief that people are capable of change with the right motivation and support is a pretty important requirement for the job.

And seeing and working with the 'inner child', the frightened and abused little boy within is what helps professionals have empathy for clients who have done awful things, and will likely do awful things again if we don't try to help.

I'm a little apprehensive as to whether I'll be any good at it, having been so ingrained in survivor work for so long. But what if we all said 'he's an abuser, he'll never change and there's no point trying'?

They keep doing the same things over and over again to different victims. We need to be asking 'why doesn't he stop and how can we address that'?

I don't believe every perpetrator is the same anymore, no more than every victim is the same.

There will be some who point blank will not be suitable for psychotherapy, who are too narcissistic/psychopathic for it to be of any value.

But they are not the only type, and the type who are more likely to be on the emotionally unstable or dependent PD spectrum, who are emotionally dysregulated and lack the emotional literacy, and interpersonal and communication skills to relate to others in a healthy way.
Who can't soothe themselves when they become distressed and who dump responsibility for managing their emotions (insecurity/anxiety etc) onto others as they don't believe they can help themselves.

I believe these skills can be taught later in life, and if I can sense a willingness to learn then I'm going to try my best to teach them.

FWRLurker · 24/12/2020 03:04

If one doesn’t believe in free will it’s easy to have sympathy while still believing that such people are monsters basically who should be locked away from society or otherwise prevented from doing more harm.

I wouldn’t want to be a monster with no choice in the matter (because no free will) so yeah, that would be a horrible situation/life to have.

PandorasMailbox · 23/12/2020 20:43

No

DrDavidBanner · 23/12/2020 17:39

Maybe it's socialisation to make excuses for bad behavior from men or to distance them from the things they choose to do, but no I have no sympathy at all.

nosswith · 23/12/2020 17:31

None whatsoever. Probably if someone took them down a back alley and beat ten bells out of them, I would struggle to condemn the violence (not that I advocate it).

Much more needs to be done to support victims, especially to assist them in giving evidence and in not waiting years in some cases for justice.

Plussizejumpsuit · 23/12/2020 17:01

I used to work with offenders, so yes I do. Not in any way excusing the behaviour but I do understand lots of the time behaviour is due to background etc. Then again some men are just awful twats.

TheChampagneGalop · 23/12/2020 16:58

Yes BitMuch I'm sick of all the sympathy given to men who abuse women and children. And the lack of sympathy for the victims.
There is a common tactic among abusers to tell sob stories and feel very sorry for themselves too.

MoltenLasagne · 23/12/2020 16:38

I'm sorry but I just categorically do not believe that the vast majority of abusers, barring actual psychosis, cannot help themselves. They want to believe they cannot help themselves, maybe they've even convinced themselves they couldn't, but if they have the wherewithal to target someone weaker than themselves, and in the case of non-parental child abuse, get a child on their own to abuse them, then they full well knew what they were doing and did so because they wanted to.

BitMuch · 23/12/2020 16:16

What happened afterwards was comparatively mild in the scale of abuse ( and it was abuse ) but his life was ruined pretty permanently.

Where is the sympathy for his 6 year old niece? What he did to her will impact her for the rest of her life. She genuinely couldn't stop it. He could stop himself and he chose to abuse her.

SuperbGorgonzola · 23/12/2020 16:11

Yes, I do.

I work with secondary age pupils and it's sad to see children living in circumstances where for instance they're being taught that violence and defiance of authority are signs of status and strength. Those who are raised to see parenting as a woman's job, and a real man's role is to live as an eternal teenager, not "under the thumb".

Jobsharenightmare · 23/12/2020 16:02

@SenselessUbiquity

You are much more eloquent but have articulated my thoughts on the complexity and nuance of so much of the trauma field.

I think ultimately black and white thinking helps people feel a sense of control and comfort as the reality is scary.

AccidentallyOnSanta · 23/12/2020 15:57
  • And if they don't know that it's abuse? If that's how they have experienced parental love, they may have no real understanding of genuine, respectful, love. If they grew up with their mind in a permanent fright/fight/flight state , they may be unable to change their response.

Not excusing abusive behaviour. But I'm not convinced that everyone truly had complete freedom to choose their behaviour.*

How can they not know? Give some examples please where abuse( particularly sexual )can be a freeze/flight/fight response or the abuser completely unaware that what they are doing is wrong on some level.

People who lack capacity, I understand.
People who are in a severely mentally altered state, I understand.
People (mostly men) who hit,rape,murder,maim ,harm etc someone weaker than them to assuage their anger,hate,shame , hurt ... not so much.

SenselessUbiquity · 23/12/2020 15:46

I think there is a confusion running through this thread to the effect that having sympathy weakens a sense of someone's responsibility. I think they are two entirely different things, utterly independent. It certainly has no bearing on potential sentencing, to me.

I have sympathy with myself when I do bad things. They aren't things like child abuse. but I am using me, looking into my own mind, as an example for how one could attempt to "look into the mind of" another and still not let them off any hooks. For instance: after I have done it, I regret shouting at my children. I do it because I am tired and stressed and because I feel as if no one gives a shit about me or the impact their behaviour has on me and suddenly my emotions take over. It upsets them, and I regret it, and wish I had not done it. The impact on them is much more important than my feelings and it should not have happened. It is poor parenting. At the same time as categorically saying I was wrong and it was a bad thing to do, because I know that I was feeling pretty bloody awful in the moment and a whole series of things led to that loss of control, I feel sympathy for myself too.

We all do bad things that we know are bad and were unable not to do, in the moment, and understanding why and even having sympathy for the place of pain it comes from, is in no way equivalent to saying any of these things: it's ok; I forgive him; he couldn't help it; it's not that bad; his feelings are as important as the victim's feelings. They are entirely different things and logically and morally entirely separate.

I do have sympathy for abusers. I was in an abusive relationship with a man who wanted his whole life to be different, and just didn't have the skills to transcend his childhood and patriarchy. I have sympathy for him, though I don't like being around him and do not regret leaving him for one second.

One of the things that is a huge problem in our society currently is extreme polarisation, a simplistic attempt to separate oneself from Bad Things. It isn't going to work - not just because of the practical and philosophical difficulties of distinguishing Good Things from Bad Things, once and for all - but because everything is connected. you just create a more volatile oscillating effect and everything gets more and more fucked up.

TheChampagneGalop · 23/12/2020 15:41

Well I'm glad his life was pretty much ruined afterwards. Imagine the impact on that child.