Ben Hunte BBC article about puberty blocker ban

If some people still hate their bodies as adults they can make the changes then. In males, as I'm sure you know, the surgery is much more straightforward if they have gone through puberty.

Yes so the question is at what point is it safest to intervene medically. How much do they have to go through before we say, ok this person is likely not going to change? Mid adolescence, late adolescence 16, 17,18, 20?

TypesofCatalogue "It’s possible many people want to move on from their past both those who do and those who don’t transition. Either way they probably don’t want to be reminded about what they went through, or didn’t go through and moved on from (people like Stella O’Malley being the exception as she talks about it)."

On the contrary, hundreds of women on here have described how uncomfortable they were with their developing bodies and, had they been teenagers today, feel like they would have leaped at the opportunity of escaping from the unstoppable march of puberty.

But those voices are not heard because they don't prop up the argument. I have seen people say that detransitioners - including Keira Bell - were never really trans and lied to access PBs and CSHs.

That’s someone trying to escape abuse and the trauma of abuse, not genuine gender dysphoria. That’s the point of differential diagnosis. Genuine gender dysphoria is caused by an underlying cross-sex core gender identity

How, then can you separate the two out, when the criteria for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria itself contains an element -distaste or distress relating to one’s genitals- that is equally likely to apply to a child or young person being sexually abused?

A young woman sought to transition, in order to eliminate every trace of her vagina. Because her father was raping her, in her vagina. She was genuinely gender dysphoric.

That’s someone trying to escape abuse and the trauma of abuse, not genuine gender dysphoria. That’s the point of differential diagnosis. Genuine gender dysphoria is caused by an underlying cross-sex core gender identity.

'Likely lots of reasons' it's an absolutely shit justification for depriving loads of children of a sex life, fertility, and health.

Likely lots of reasons is the justification for not doing that in the vast majority of cases. I’m not sure why you’ve misinterpreted there.

The end result for these children as they will never, ever have the experiences of their peers. For fifty, sixty, seventy years.

Yes if it’s done too early as in certain well known cases.

There is a remote possibility that somebody might not feel like having a sex life so it's ok to remove any chance they have?

I too am permanently gobsmacked at the fact that there are adults out there so wedded to this ideology that they believe this - that because they have a fantasy (and it is a fantasy) about how wonderful their lives would have been had they been given puberty blockers as children (without thought to the fact that their lives would have been dramatically different, not enough tissue for "vaginoplasty", no sex drive, various other downsides), it is perfectly okay to offer children "treatment" which will destroy their future fertility and sex lives on the tiny, remote chance that "hey, they might have turned out to be asexual anyway."

How bonkers do you have to be to say this with a straight face?

Some people who are gender (sex) dysphoric about their bodies don’t have any sexual relationships at all

Removing the capacity for normal sexual function from gender dysphoric children is not a solution to this.

If some people still hate their bodies as adults they can make the changes then. In males, as I'm sure you know, the surgery is much more straightforward if they have gone through puberty.

There is a remote possibility that somebody might not feel like having a sex life so it's ok to remove any chance they have?

Especially as the vast majority of kids showing up would appear to be gay. Last time I looked, homosexuality doesn't equate to asexuality.

Why would it even be something to consider?

Are they doing the same with sterility? 'Well some people don't want children'.

*should endeavour to

Some people who are gender (sex) dysphoric about their bodies don’t have any sexual relationships at all

Correction: some adults who are dysphoric don’t have any sexual relationships at all. That does not mean children ages 10-16 can choose and consent to being this way, by consenting to being on puberty blockers.

Adults are condemning children to this outcome automatically. These children aren’t given the option of a different outcome and can’t consent to this outcome because they’ve no idea what it entails. That some dysphoric adults struggle with sexual relationships doesn’t mean we endeavour should send kids that way FFS.

Will we ever truly know the cause of gender dysphoria for sure?

Not if it is considered transphobic to research it, no. Not when people like James Caspian have to take the issue to the European court lift the censorship on his research.

What matters are practical solutions. Sometimes that means the least worst option.

It doesn't matter what the option is, when children are deemed unable to consent to it.

I don’t tell children they can change sex. I was talking about someone going through adolescence and not being able to start having some of the experiences their peers do because of dysphoria.

The end result for these children as they will never, ever have the experiences of their peers. For fifty, sixty, seventy years.

There’s likely lots of reasons it’s happening. The fact that there is currently a cultural phenomenon driving 100s of girls to present with some sort of dysphoria (unrelated to transsexuality) doesn’t mean within that there isn’t a much smaller group of genuine gender dysphoric children who will never grow out of it and for whom transition might be the only treatment at some point.

'Likely lots of reasons' it's an absolutely shit justification for depriving loads of children of a sex life, fertility, and health.

Also if you have no idea what causes gender dysphoria, how can you even use the words 'genuinely gender dysphoric'? As opposed to what? Lying?

A young woman sought to transition, in order to eliminate every trace of her vagina. Because her father was raping her, in her vagina. She was genuinely gender dysphoric.

Ignoring her trauma and accommodating her wish resolves nothing.

Fortunately, she realised the cause of her gender dysphoria and addressed it.

Adult men who struggle with toxic masculinity and wish to opt out of it and into an imagined version of girlhood have no business opining on, or judging, the experience of actual teenage girls.

Puberty blockers block sexual feelings and prevent sexual functions. It’s why they are used on (Male) sex offenders.

The answer isn't getting them all on puberty blockers for the benefit of the tiny % whose dysphoria will persist though, is it?

No it isn’t. It’s a dilemma for the clinicians, an almost impossible task. Mistakes either way result in painful outcomes.

It would be interesting to know what happened to all the children like that in the past. They obviously didn't all transition as adults, because there'd be millions of trans adults now if that were the case. (Obviously those with ladydicks and those who have fathered children don't count, because they obviously weren't that disgusted by their genitals.)

Yes it would be interesting. The lack of follow up in transsexual medicine has been shocking. Not sure how much is failure of the system or patients not wanting to be involved. It’s possible many people want to move on from their past both those who do and those who don’t transition. Either way they probably don’t want to be reminded about what they went through, or didn’t go through and moved on from (people like Stella O’Malley being the exception as she talks about it).

Not sure about that.. some people are more dysphoric about secondary characteristics than primary. Same happens with some trans men, they give birth.

it seems that many of them can go on to live happy lives as adults without any interference with their bodies as adolescents.

Most probably. Hopefully.

I was talking about someone going through adolescence and not being able to start having some of the experiences their peers do because of dysphoria

Puberty blockers prevent adolescents from having the same experiences as their non-puberty-blocked peers.

There’s likely lots of reasons it’s happening. The fact that there is currently a cultural phenomenon driving 100s of girls to present with some sort of dysphoria (unrelated to transsexuality) doesn’t mean within that there isn’t a much smaller group of genuine gender dysphoric children who will never grow out of it and for whom transition might be the only treatment at some point.

How do you determine who belongs to which group, before embarking on the road to lifelong medicalisation?

The fact that there is currently a cultural phenomenon driving 100s of girls to present with some sort of dysphoria (unrelated to transsexuality) doesn’t mean within that there isn’t a much smaller group of genuine gender dysphoric children who will never grow out of it and for whom transition might be the only treatment at some point.

The answer isn't getting them all on puberty blockers for the benefit of the tiny % whose dysphoria will persist though, is it? Because it seems that that is what's happening.

I don’t tell children they can change sex. I was talking about someone going through adolescence and not being able to start having some of the experiences their peers do because of dysphoria.

There’s likely lots of reasons it’s happening. The fact that there is currently a cultural phenomenon driving 100s of girls to present with some sort of dysphoria (unrelated to transsexuality) doesn’t mean within that there isn’t a much smaller group of genuine gender dysphoric children who will never grow out of it and for whom transition might be the only treatment at some point.

Great letter.

[quote Imnobody4]Another great letter, this time from a group of doctors.

twitter.com/lascapigliata8/status/1341533242168631301?s=19[/quote]
That's an excellent letter

What an excellent letter. So many professionals stepping out of the fear closet and standing up for the safety of children using facts and professional expertise. Well done all of them.

But also winesalot who on the whole are a different sex from the swathes of teenagers wanting to transition now

Another great letter, this time from a group of doctors.

twitter.com/lascapigliata8/status/1341533242168631301?s=19

I had written a very similar post and deleted it in the wee hours. The lack of acknowledgement of the differences between mature males transitioner experiences and the current cohort is never, never acknowledged. I have felt the I am constantly repeating myself over the past week. Not once has their been a reply.

Not once.

The care seems to be focused on having less cosmetic surgery. There is no acknowledgement that 75% of these young people are FEMALE. And the drugs are not reversible (bone density and joint issues are experienced 10-15 years on in the women who took the drugs to delay puberty !!!!! Or are teeth falling out just acceptable collateral? The effect on mental development is also well documented. Also acceptable??

And CSH quickly are completely irreversible for women. This is so very different for males on estrogen.

This lack of acknowledgement is hugely dangerous because it leads to a group of children and teens being told early is the best by all these well meaning, I am sure, people, who may feel they strongly identify as they do. But from a life where they got have sex and have orgasms, and some even have their own children.

What should we do for suicidal children who do not identify as trans?

Children and young people kill themselves over bullying. Maybe medical procedures and anti- depressants all round?