When we talk about prostitution, we should focus on the buyers

@carlaCox tbh I’m not a massive fan of ‘sex work is work’ but I understand where it’s coming from. It’s trying to destigmatise the people working. I’m so so sorry for your family member, that must be so hard for all of you.
Someone I know who isn’t a ‘happy hooker’ - they do street sex work as they need the money - is very vocal about her experiences. All her family cut her off when they found out what she was doing. She is strongly in favour of decriminalisation as she knows it’s safer.

Also, services shouldn’t force people to leave prostitution - this is the case in some countries with the Nordic Model - and if they disagree they can be charged.

FWIW, I’d be very much in favour of campaigning social services to stop taking children from mothers who do sex work. I think it’s disgusting that it’s so common.

@leafinthewind I’m also very much in favour of legalised cannabis. I think about it this way, comparing it to drug laws. Cannabis is less harmful than alcohol imo, so the best comparison for that would be online sex work/phone work. It should be fully legalised and regulated. It still can have detrimental effects, so services should be available to those who experience those inc. therapy. Full service sex work is probably most comparable to hard drugs like heroin or crack. These should be decriminalised for the user and harm reduction services should be available to users without promoting the drugs, like needle exchanges, safe injection rooms and ways to stop if someone wants to quit, like methadone for example. But there’s no point trying to force an addict to quit, someone has to want to quit. So what’s needed is compassionate support. The parallel with full service sex work would be full decriminalisation (including punters as that’s a harm reduction strategy) and providing services that help people who both want to quit, and don’t want to quit. Therapy is a big one. Tbh I think everyone would benefit from therapy, I wish it was more accessible.

@dayoftheclownfish @CaraDuneRedux Germany didn’t decriminalise prostitution, they legalised it. I do not support this at all, it’s just criminalisation with extra steps. I’m not a massive fan of brothels but I know some women feel safer there than on their own. There should be some type of regulation I think around them. I also think the brothel keeping law in the U.K. needs to change, as women working together in a flat as a collective can be arrested as in the law that constitutes a brothel. I don’t know what the answer is to that, I think a discussion is needed. With the decriminalisation of drugs, I don’t think dealers should be decriminalised, same as with people exploiting women (so pimps, madams etc.). That should not be decriminalised.

@WeeBisom “Can the government force job seekers into looking for work at a brothel?”
This is talking about legalisation, I don’t support that. Legalisation is not good.

@PotholeParadies The woman is from Melbourne, Victoria which has legalised sex. I don’t agree with this model.

@WhereverIGoddamnLike Germany has legalisation, not decriminalisation - I do not support this. If it’s decriminalised, they wouldn’t be able to advertise in job centres. Decriminalisation is not the same as legalisation

Lots of confusion between legalisation and decriminalisation but I’m happy to explain the main differences if anyone would be interested
:~)

Sorry that doesn't work for any other industry, do cake buyers get the focus of attention or cake makers, for the customer football fans get focussed on or the players in articles about restaurants it is the chef rather the diner. I'm fed up with women dictating how other women choose to earn their money, it's bad enough men doing it let alone women. Sex work is one of the oldest professions and will be around long after radical feminism and many of todays modern professions have ceased to exist.

@MargaritaPie

And if it is decriminalised then what follows is what happened in Germany. You will have women on universal credit being sanction and losing their benefits if they dont go to interviews or accept job offers from brothels.

Was it in Germany where brotherly owners were granted access to advertise their vacancies in the German version of the job centre. In order to receive unemployment benefits, you have to attend interviews and you need to accept a job if it is offered. Once brothels were allowed access to this, and they started offering interviews to women you then had the situation were women were told "take the job in the brothel or lose your benefits".

Women were evening forced into prostitution because it was made legal and was seen as "sex work is work" so brothels had the same right as any other employer to use the jobcentre database. Women had the choice of sex work or completely poverty, because they lost their unemployment benefits.

Not New Zealand, but Australia.

This account of what it is like to work as a receptionist in a legal brothel is chilling.

nordicmodelnow.org/2018/07/01/working-as-a-receptionist-in-a-legal-brothel-prostitution-is-anything-but-a-normal-job/

Quote"Can a prostitute sue her workplace for sexual harassment "

In New Zealand which has complete decrim, yes.

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/14/new-zealand-sex-worker-wins-six-figure-sexual-harassment-payout

Quote: "How representative are these orgs you are invoking? What are their claims based on? And even if they were representative, what is your argument for letting these groups determine policy "

The groups I mentioned are made up of adults who sell sexual services themselves and I'm sure their claims are based on their own lived experiences, so shouldn't the sex workers("prostitutes") views themselves be held most important?

Complete decriminalisation is also advocated by the following, most of these are orgs who specialise in human rights or health issues.

Amnesty International
World Health Org
Human Rights Watch
UNAIDS and UNFPA
Freedom United (International anti-slavery org)
ILGA (international LGBTI assoc)
PICUM (org based with rights and safety of migrants in Europe)
GAATW (Global Alliance against Trafficked women)
HIV Scotland
National AIDS Trust

“Sex work is work”- well, so what? Child labour is work. Sweatshops are work. Slavery is work. I don’t understand why this phrase is bandied about like it’s the end of the argument. Lots of kinds of work can be degrading and utterly shit. There are kinds of work that are so awful we ought to legislate against it. If you tell me “cockle picking for 12p an hour is work!” That isn’t an argument in favour of cockle picking.

In any case, if prostitution really is work these leads to all kind of strange consequences. All workers have health and safety rights. Can a prostitute sue her workplace if she doesn’t have access to full PPE? Can a prostitute sue her workplace for sexual harassment for displaying pornography everywhere? Can the government force job seekers into looking for work at a brothel? Could a corporation make it part of your contract that you have to sexually service clients?

Also, something that is often swept under the carpet in this debate is the huge amount of violence that women are exposed to. I remember reading this Lib fem book about prostitution and they acknowledged that harm was a natural part of “the job” so risk prevention was needed. The only other job that risks you being killed or severely wounded by another human is in the military. Shouldn’t we be asking why in this job the “clients” are so violent towards the service providers? And why is this just accepted as inevitable?

MargaritaPie You're making a classic ‘appeal to authority’ move, without much in terms of content.

How representative are these orgs you are invoking? What are their claims based on? And even if they were representative, what is your argument for letting these groups determine policy that affects relations between men and women more globally?

Language policing, too, I see. Very Victorian.

MargaritaPie I know that, and I think the others here do too.

I don't want men to buy access to women's bodies for sex. I think it's bad for all of us if this happens (see 'negative externalities' conversation upthread). I know some people here have made sweeping comments, but my guess is that's borne of frustration and long experience. The strongest thread running through this discussion, though, is that all of us would like to see an end to men buying access to women's bodies for sex.

It's hard for me to turn away from women sex workers giving their own accounts of their own experiences - I'm used to making an effort to listen to women's accounts. But in this case, I'm concerned that the accounts which are being centred in the discussion are pretty unusual, and that legislative approaches which would work for those women (e.g. legalisation) would be bad for (a) trafficked or addicted or otherwise vulnerable women who are part of the sex trade, and (b) other women who are not part of the sex trade.

"Umbrella Land", I meant to type "Umbrella Lane". whoops

Quote:""Sex work is work" is a men's rights campaign with the aim of increasing men's ability to buy sex."

I disagree, "sex work is work" is a term used by a large number of sex workers themselves. British-based groups made up of sex workers (or "prostitutes" if you'd rather used that word") include Scot-Pep, IUSW, Umbrella Land and the English Collective of Prostitutes; all use the terms "sex work" and "sex worker" as well as campaign for full decriminalisation. A view also supported by many local and international human rights and health orgs.

How many woke sex work inclusive kind people sit up and listen..?

None. Not one. That's because they don't give a shit about raped adults and children.

It is of course, but I'd love to know what percentage of "sex workers" are left when you remove those other people

Exactly. Take all women actually selling sex (as opposed to web cam / phone sex). Then remove all who are coerced or financially coerced into it, remove all who have a history of sexual abuse, remove all who have a drug addition or serious mental health issue. How many women would be left? A tiny minority I suspect.

And yet some people seem to think we should design our entire approach to this issue around this tiny minority.

leafinthewind Agree with you, it is possible to see this issue through a ‘negative externalities’ lens, thank you for formulating this so well.

Ditum makes a totally obvious but irrefutable point: if there are these women who ‘just love sex’, why don’t they just go ahead? There are many willing men, no need for any financial transaction. Our society only mildly disapproves of plentiful casual sex, if at all. The point about prostitution is that you are having sex with someone you would reject in all other circumstances.

I recently was shown a university text book in which sex work is defined as ONLY people who want to be doing it and probably enjoy it, because if a woman (or man) is coerced into it, including for financial reasons, or trafficked, then that's abuse and sexual slavery.

It is of course, but I'd love to know what percentage of "sex workers" are left when you remove those other people. My guess is a statistically insignificant number. And yet, they're the ones speaking out on behalf of everybody else. And the ones being heard.

Want to see the stigma attached to prostitution then watch what happens when a formerly prostituted woman speaks out against the sex industry. How many woke sex work inclusive kind people sit up and listen..?

Agree carlaCox. I also think that listening to people who are in a situation is a virtue: it's good that people want to hear from sex workers before making up their minds on this. A problem arises because the women who are able to speak up are not representative of the women who are suffering.

dayoftheclownfish I read Ditum's UnHerd article and found it really interesting. I've talked to pro-legalisation friends and used the classical economic negative externalities argument myself. I think, as a pragmatic liberal, that it's quite a compelling point. The idea that it is, in any sense, OK for men to purchase access to women's bodies for sex is damaging for all women - not just the women who (appear to) opt in. Trouble is, the women who have been listening to the sex workers unions don't find it anything like as convincing as I do. I got 'grey rocked' by a friend the other day. It was briefly entertaining, as I realised what she was doing. But I really didn't get anywhere.

I was listening to the Ted Talk hour, Radio4Extra this morning, reframing, rewording was part of the 'gender' discussion (I was a bit pissed off that they didn't reword 'gender' but hey! They were Americans and I know there is a langauge mismatch).

Simple example

Ted beats Mary
Mary is beaten
(These days we use the term battered)
Mary is a battered woman

3 steps to making the man invisible and making Mary the cause of the issue!

We need to reverse that!

Name the problem...

how many of them secretly do despise them

I don't know if it's about despising them necessarily. I've seen these Ted talks on YouTube by women talking about loving sex work and feeling rewarded that they're making another person happy and everyone is furiously applauding. I think it's easier to pretend that sex work is liberating and we all just need to be supportive rather than to face up to the reality of what is going on.

I can completely understand that many people think unions and regulations would help women in this situation (as they have done for many sectors) but the reality for my family member is that I highly doubt she would have been eligible for any of this stuff even if it existed. She was seriously addicted to drugs/alcohol and was mentally unstable. There's no way she would have lasted five minutes in a regulated brothel or whatever. And even if she did I suspect it would have made things ten times worse for her as she would never have been able to escape it.

Thanks @dayoftheclownfish I wish I could say "yes she's fine now" but unfortunately not. She's still having problems with addiction and mental health and is currently allowed only very limited contact with her children. She's been completely let down by social services, the courts and the NHS. We're doing everything we can to help her but it's just a nightmare. The "stigma of sex work" really is at the very bottom of her list of concerns to be honest and I think this would be true for any woman in her situation.

Also the German model was touted on the promise that it would bring improved "workers rights" in the form of health care, sick pay etc. All that has happened instead is the rise of Mega Brothels, where prostitutes are treated as "independent contractors" renting a work space. So no health insurance, no holiday pay, none of the promised benefits - instead an average of 6 tricks before you even break even on the room rental and can start earning for yourself.

And that's before you even get onto the plywood sheds in motorway "rest places", or the fact that the price of a blow job on the streets of Hamburg has fallen below the price of a big Mac. Think about that - sucking some stranger's dick in the gutter without a condom and at the end of it you still can't afford a cheap burger.

The Nordic model may have its flaws, but Germany has created hell on earth.

Put the experiences side by side and it is a no-brainer as to which is worse for women. Decrminalization has horrific consequences: the Nordic model wins hands down for harm reduction.

leafinthewind

Why don't you research what has happened in Germany? They decriminalised prostitution in the early 2000s under a left-wing government and it has been quite an 'interesting' social experiment.

It is common in Germany for male sex buyers to be able to refuse to wear a condom - there is even an acronym for it (AO - 'alles ohne gummi', meaning 'all without rubber'). Brothel owners have become very rich, some convicted of trafficking offences. The enlargement of the EU has brought many Eastern European women into the German sex industry, along with many other migrant or minority-ethnic women (women of non-German ethnicity make up, I think, 80-85% of prostituted women), fuelling a shocking racism that is rarely discussed openly.

Sarah Ditum always makes well-reasoned arguments on this issue. Enjoyed her latest article: unherd.com/2020/12/what-choice-do-prostitutes-have/

carlaCox I hope your family member is in a better place now. The argument that it's the stigma, not prostitution itself that's the problem is so non-sensical. Reminds me of the time when Germaine Greer was (rightly) criticised for saying (IIRC) that rape would be less of a social issue if we removed the stigma from being raped.

I often wonder how many 'sex-work-is-work' lib fems actually are friends with women who have worked in the sex industry, and how many of them secretly do despise them.

@ACatWhoBinds I'm interested in this because I'm generally a liberal, and think that making things illegal is often an unhelpful policy response. I'm broadly in favour of the legalisation of cannabis. I could support legalisation of class A drugs, for example, if it were backed with sufficient government intervention e.g. controlled sales through pharmacies. I recognise though, that there would STILL be illegal sales/imports. So the problem would continue to exist - it would just be a slightly different problem.

I've tried applying the same philosophy to prostitution. If it were legalised, with legal controls/checks to protect sex workers, would that improve things? Wouldn't there still be an illegal sex trade, serving men who didn't want to wear a condom or who wanted to be violent during the transaction?

I genuinely want to be liberal, but I don't think it would help in this case. I completely agree that we shouldn't be prosecuting women (that is, that sex work should be decriminalised) but I don't see the problem with the Nordic approach, which combines decriminalisation for women with prosecution for men. Well, I see the problem - that sex work will continue to be dangerous for the women involved - but I don't see a better way of approaching it.

Plus the "sex work is work" campaign has done nothing to change the attitudes of social services or the courts who are still removing children from women who are forced into prostitution and victim-blaming the women involved. If there was a concerted campaign to reduce stigma and victim-blaming in social services then that is a campaign I would get behind.

Sorry, rant over. As you can tell, this issue sits very close to home for me!