When we talk about prostitution, we should focus on the buyers

No country with legalised or complete-decriminalised sexwork has ever had their job-centre force anyone to provide sexual-services, and this would never happen. As mentioned earlier, the story about such a thing happening in Germany is false.

As a PP linked, a sex worker here has sued for sexual harrassment this year and won an enormous payout. She is entitled to safety (physical and emotional) at work.

In any case, if prostitution really is work these leads to all kind of strange consequences. All workers have health and safety rights. Can a prostitute sue her workplace if she doesn’t have access to full PPE? Can a prostitute sue her workplace for sexual harassment for displaying pornography everywhere? Can the government force job seekers into looking for work at a brothel? Could a corporation make it part of your contract that you have to sexually service clients?

In NZ, sex workers are protected as employees under the Employment contracts Act (for fair employment dealings) and Worksafe (for safety). Just like any other job. No one can be forced into any job (that's slavery, isn't it?) and no employer can add services to your contract that you don't agree to. Standard labour law.

I'm also interested in what happens after legalisation. Imagine that the policy is enacted. Sex workers can now organise. They can easily rent a building. They can employ their own security and web designers and laundry services and whatever else they need. They also pay taxes and have some employment rights.

Now imagine that a woman (I'll call her Rachel) is addicted to class A drugs and needs to make money to pay for them. She decides to sell her body to men for sex. The well-organised sex workers are unwilling to employ her or rent to her - and they have no responsibility to her, of course. Rachel offers sex acts to punters who are regularly turned away from the legal brothel for being unhygienic/violent/impecunious/on drugs.

What happens next?

Sex work is legal. Buying a body to do sex acts on is also legal. Rachel's punters can be charged if they are violent, but Rachel works in cars and back streets where there are no witnesses, so those crimes are hard to prosecute. She's no better off than she would have been before sex work was legalised.

There is a big risk that the sex worker lobby is not representative of all sex workers, that is the objection. The marginalised do not engage with lobbying groups; they scarcely have the energy to survive in many cases.

Shouldn't the voices of the sex worker "lobby" be the most important since they are ones selling sexual services?

I didn't mention anything about the punters/buyers of sexual services.

What about all the health and human-rights and anti-trafficking orgs I mentioned who are against the Nordic model?

If the Nordic model is so great why is it not supported by sex worker groups themselves

Why would anyone advocate to criminalises their own customers?
Of course the sex worker lobby don't want it.

It's about protecting ALL women, not just those privileged few sex workers that have a voice, or the 100% of punters who obviously don't want it.

@gncq
No worries. It is very confusing!

Just to add, in Britain pimping (all aspects of pimping, this includes providing any service at all including making a website for a sex worker, being a driver or taking photographs) is illegal. Street prostitution (except for the Leeds tolerated area) is illegal including buying of sexual services.

If the Nordic model is so great why is it not supported by sex worker groups themselves, or local and international human rights and health orgs such as Amnesty Int, the World Health Org, UNAIDS, Global Alliance against Trafficked women, HIV Scotland the National AIDS Trust etc? Are they all "working with the pimp lobby"?

PlanDa No, you're right I'm all muddled up so I had to pop over to Google. The Irish model is in fact the "Nordic Model" not decrim and yes German is legalized not decrim.

The Leeds model is euphemistically called a "managed approach" so it protects women from prosecution who are engaged in soliciting which is illegal in the wider UK.

Decrimimalisation is found in New Zealand and Australia.

Nordic Model is a part criminalisation approach that protects sex workers from prosecution but criminalises punters. So I basically agree with you but the terminology is different.

@Gncq
that's not decriminalisation as in German/Irish/Leeds model,

I am not familiar with the Irish and Leeds model, but the German model is full legalisation, not decriminalisation.

Have you all come across the # invisible Men project? It's on Tumblr (and possibly Twitter?) It's a very eye opening account of reviews left by anonymous men about their paid for shag.

I think decriminalisation- which means that the prostitutes are not treated as criminals but victims, but the buyers are treated as criminals and prosecuted is the initial first step that has to occur. Decriminalisation includes prosecuting pimps/madams. To me, though this is a necessary stepping stone to abolishment of prostitution as the final goal. Should be aiming to support these women (and the few male prostitutes) into education/new careers

That's not decriminalisation as in German/Irish/Leeds model, which is where basically nothing is done and anything goes for all involved, we're supposed to believe "workers rights" are in place under decrimimalisation.

The above is a description of the "Nordic Model". Where punters are criminalised, but prostitutes are not. Or it's known as a "part criminalisation" model. Not full criminalisation as in some States of America and most of Africa where everyone involved is acting illegally (and in practice the women routinely get arrested but the men don't).

Just coming on to say that I completely agree, OP. Who are they anyway.

@dayoftheclownfish
can you really uphold the fiction that men ‘need’ to buy sex?

It is a fiction. Always has been about men and their fantasies. The point of men buying sex is so that they can access women who would not normally consent to have sex with them. Often older men with much younger women.

@Grellbunt
I worry that we are now at a point in society where the received woke answer to this supply /demand imbalance is to “remove the stigma” and encourage more women to supply.

Yes me too. Women/girls are already hyper-sexualised from their early teens. I think to encourage more casual sex or sex sooner on in relationships than some women are really emotionally comfortable with.

I like the idea of shifting the focus away from the women and onto the men. So every story should have an illustration of some tragic punter, instead of some salacious photo of a skimpily dressed woman. Let’s get the punters out of the shadows and onto centre stage, if it’s all such good clean fun. Nothing to be ashamed of!

It will certainly help me to focus the withering contempt I feel for men who think they’re entitled to buy the bodies of women and girls. Unless they’d enjoy that contempt, in which case I withhold it.

It’s taken me a while to realise that Germany isn’t as woman friendly as I originally thought it was. It’s pretty old fashioned as a society tbh.

In the age of Tinder, can you really uphold the fiction that men ‘need’ to buy sex? And surely, isn’t it a bit embarrassing to have to pay for something that you should be able to get for free? (Enthusiastic consent etc.?)

What gets me is that the reality of prostitution in Germany must have been known for close to a decade but politicians are only now, slowly, thinking about changing the law, from what I can tell. And it was the left-wing parties who made this possible!

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@dayoftheclownfish
I wholeheartedly agree that Germany created a monstrous situation for women. I also cannot see any way for prostitution to be desirable for women to thrive in. The supply of women who are truly consenting to sell sex is always far below the demand of men who want to buy sex. This imbalance always leads to criminal sex trafficking.[/quote]
I agree. I worry that we are now at a point in society where the received woke answer to this supply /demand imbalance is to “remove the stigma” and encourage more women to supply.

00:28 ACatWhoBinds

Wow that was really quick.
I'm sure "Punternet" has an automatic alert when a thread on prostitution pops up here.

@dayoftheclownfish
I wholeheartedly agree that Germany created a monstrous situation for women. I also cannot see any way for prostitution to be desirable for women to thrive in. The supply of women who are truly consenting to sell sex is always far below the demand of men who want to buy sex. This imbalance always leads to criminal sex trafficking.

PlanDeRaccordement I realise I got my terms mixed up, my bad, see above.

It would be interesting to know if we can all agree that the current situation in Germany is not desirable?

Do I want women to thrive in prostitution? That’s not really one of my life goals, no. I find it hard to imagine that it can ever be something positive for the vast majority of women but I like to keep an open mind.