Thank you

Well, I'm very glad you have found something that works. Just so long as you respect that women's peace of mind sometimes requires single sex spaces, and don't impinge on that right, we are all able to coexist perfectly happily.

Well, previous case was taken by a right-wing fundamentalist anti-abortionist lawyer, so who knows.

Mmmm....

Abortion is a bodily health issue. So, I figure that is a good fit. Same areas of law covered. Tax law.... not so much. Particularly since they have repeatedly already displayed some significantly poorly thought out ideas so far.

Also, I don’t know. I was always under the impression barristers took on cases that went against their personal point of view if they felt there was a problem with the law in that case (or because they were professional and personal views were put aside). One of them...

@ArabellaScott
"I do feel for you, I imagine it must be very hard to live with all of this confusion. Reality is sometimes hard to accept, although generally I have found it brings the most peace in the end, even when that is not what we thought we were looking for. I wish you well and hope you have a good festive season."

Thank you. And I wish the same for you.

Just to clarify, there was never any confusion about my gender identity - it hasn't fluctuated at all since I first recognised it at the age or 3 or 4.

The reality of being trans is indeed hard to accept, but I did, and as you say, it finally brought me peace of mind.

*I did answer that - I borrowed Shon Faye's definition which I felt was about the most accurate one I've heard:

"'Woman' is a loose, shifting constellation of biological, political and cultural phenomena which varies according to context, place and time. While it's possible to notice strong correlations among these; it is impossible to mandate exclusive criteria."*

Okay, you like that definition. The trouble is that most of it is completely meaningless, and the parts that aren't are wrong.

Woman is a very simple biological category. It's not loose or shifting. It doesn't vary according to time. We've been reproducing sexually for as long as humans have existed.

That's all. It's not complicated. It's not uncertain, it's not shifting or questioned or arguable.

You may prefer a GC definition of "sex", but then you have to decide which one - do you go with the gamete people? Or the gonad people? or the chromosome people, or even the socialisation people? The fact that you have so many options to choose from might give you some hint that Shon is onto something.

I agree that female gametes, gonads and chromosomes are all female in females, yes. What is it you're trying to say here, Positrans - you do realise that the fact of various characteristics all being features of female doesn't somehow put them in competition with each other? We're not a pick-and-mix of biological features that can be jumbled up like different outfits - we are just female, that's all.

Differences in sexual development or intersex are not anything to do with the 'trans' question, and I believe people with DSDs have specifically asked many times not to be 'lumped in' with people who feel they are transgender.

I do feel for you, I imagine it must be very hard to live with all of this confusion. Reality is sometimes hard to accept, although generally I have found it brings the most peace in the end, even when that is not what we thought we were looking for. I wish you well and hope you have a good festive season.

But pretty confident that the High Court judgement will be upheld - because "first do no harm" plus "can this person really understand enough to consent to all the after effects of this proposed treatment?" are pretty fundamental principles on which to base a judgement.

I think it's juvenile wankery to derail a Thank You thread, but both the act and the content illustrate male privilege beautifully.

@Winesalot "Considering studies have also shown that mental health is not actually improved by medicalised transition"

From a meta-analysis of 51 peer-reviewed studies:

whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/%20what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people%20/

1. The scholarly literature makes clear that gender transition is effective in treating gender dysphoria and can significantly improve the well-being of transgender individuals.

2. Among the positive outcomes of gender transition and related medical treatments for transgender individuals are improved quality of life, greater relationship satisfaction, higher self-esteem and confidence, and reductions in anxiety, depression, suicidality, and substance use.

3. The positive impact of gender transition on transgender well-being has grown considerably in recent years, as both surgical techniques and social support have improved.

4. Regrets following gender transition are extremely rare and have become even rarer as both surgical techniques and social support have improved. Pooling data from numerous studies demonstrates a regret rate ranging from .3 percent to 3.8 percent. Regrets are most likely to result from a lack of social support after transition or poor surgical outcomes using older techniques.

I think you'll find that the court case will be overturned. We'll have to wait and see.

We will indeed. And probably know if it will be appealed very soon.

Although, if you are relying on a QC who specializes in tax to take this forward, I’d be looking elsewhere.

Positrans That article doesn't say anything about women attacking girls in public locker rooms.
Do you really believe it's a risk for a girl to use the women's locker room?

In fact, some endocrinologists who do specialize in this field have spoken up and pointed out just how poor the evidence WPATH uses. And commented on how the endocrinologist society also was relying on this very poor evidence. Yes, their references have expanded, but, still poor quality.

Well, no one develops a womb or testicles at puberty. They develop secondary sexual characteristics.

No boy goes through female puberty and no girl goes through male puberty. Although I'm unsurprised that you want to think it.

A girl will never father a child nor produce sperm, and a boy will never gestate or menstruate. Ever.

Anecdotes about friends, again, are irrelevant.

The answer is no, positrans. High Court judges, three of them in fact, have been quite clear. No.

Followed very swiftly, by WPATH. Who appear to have abandoned their 'standards of care' assertion on this in favour of 'guidance'. It is my understanding that standards of care is a legal concept, which they are now keen to distance themselves from. Guidance, however, would appear to pass the legal buck to the individual doctors concerned.

It's amazing how the potential threat of litigation concentrates the mind.

It's also quite clear that the assertions about standards of care were not based on anything that could stand up in court.

One wonders what they were based on.

Endocrinologists are speaking up:

What are puberty blockers other than wish fulfillment by adults looking back and saying "if only my body stayed like it was at age 11, I would have passed better"?
But passing is one thing. A male cannot be made into a female or vice versa.

It's a good job that courts are the people who decide whether or not children are given life altering drugs, not adults who wished they looked different.

It seems you are willing to consider all potential negative outcomes except the trauma a trans child goes though at puberty without blockers.

It seems you are willing to downplay the other major health aspects of transitioning children and teens in light of this trauma. Considering studies have also shown that mental health is not actually improved by medicalised transition, not sure sure it is the right approach to continue to downplay the other health aspects the way your posts seem to.

Having been through egg retrieval it is a very, very invasive, serious medical procedure, with a risk of potentially fatal side effects (ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome). I remember spending a weekend feeling like I'd been kicked in the guts by a Clydesdale and wondering how close to OHS I'd come (my hormone levels had gone spectacularly high, and I knew we were skirting very close to the wind - but I was pushing 40 and this was probably my last chance at becoming a mother - not a confused 14 year old who'd been fed a crock of shit).

If true (and I sincerly hope that degree of medical malpractice is not really taking place) I'd put that as another tick on the list of "reasons why blockers, cross sex hormones and an irreversible medical pathway for young teens without the mental maturity to give properly informed consent is a very bad idea indeed."

Well, I am at least glad that you don't fall into the "we can always tell" category. actually, I do think that women can tell. I have a vision impairment just enough that if I don’t have my glasses on, I can still reliably tell from a distance. I will admit it might be harder with a person who had their puberty blocked or had spent a great deal on feminizing their face etc. Maybe men can’t tell.

If you reveal a penis at the last moment when a vagina was clearly expected, then you are probably stupid. glad to have that cleared up.

However, a trans women who is passable and has a vagina, is under no obligation to reveal her medical history. But here we will disagree.

It doesn't happen in real life - trans women are generally fairly terrified about dating and many people think that a beating or even murder are actually justified if they find out their sexual partner is trans
It is men who do this beating and murdering of trans women. So why are you berating us for not wanting you in our prisons, hospitals etc

You may prefer a GC definition of "sex", but then you have to decide which one - do you go with the gamete people? Or the gonad people? or the chromosome people, or even the socialisation people? The fact that you have so many options to choose from might give you some hint that Shon is onto something.

You do know that these are not separate 'options' right?

Gonads = a type of gamete which are determined by chromosomes.

and

"I want words to have clearly defined meanings"

Everyone does, and it would make life easier, but unfortunately, biology is complex and doesn't care about lexical preferences.

You are aware that this is how words work? They have clearly defined meanings?? Kind of the point of a dictionary? Biology and any science finds it particularly imperative to have clear defined meanings. It is only the trans ideologists that are trying to complicate and confuse meanings to their own ends (Shon's definition you referenced being a case in point).

Please don't be involved in that - surely you are better than that?

The idea of egg retrieval at 14 is monstrous, absolutely monstrous. I'd be horrified if I believed you.

You probably ought to read Theo's words here:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-55369784

If you're pressuring someone to have sex, you are already committing a crime. If you reveal a penis at the last moment when a vagina was clearly expected, then you are probably stupid. It doesn't happen in real life - trans women are generally fairly terrified about dating and many people think that a beating or even murder are actually justified if they find out their sexual partner is trans.

However, a trans women who is passable and has a vagina, is under no obligation to reveal her medical history. People should just be upfront about being transphobic or just not wanting a sexual partner who happens to be trans, then the trans person is not outed, and can get out of the situation, and the prospective partner gets to avoid sex with a trans person. Win win.

I would just like to reiterate my THANK YOU too.

And you certainly don't understand the implications of egg extraction from little girls. Of course.

Yes. When this was pointed out on a previous thread, there were crickets but no acknowledgement. When grown women suffer strokes and other life shortening effects from hyperstimulation of the ovaries, what chance does a young girl or teen have? I have read that it is worse but I haven’t sought evidence. Because, the risks are certainly not going to be lower.

Also, there is plenty of evidence that states the very very low success rate of these ‘banked’ gametes. It is like cruelly selling dreams.